Stephen Sondheim: Age 88 March 22

[+ WilliamM]

Happy Birthday. The first Sondheim show I saw was Gypsy in 1960.

[TruthBTold]

Thank God. At first I thought you were announcing his death. It is nice for you to remember his birthday.

[nsguy45]

We attended the same performance of Company, starring Aaron Tveit, at the Barrington in Pittsfield last August. Sorry to report that he did not look well that evening.

[bostonman]

It's ironic, somehow, that (Sir) Andrew Lloyd Webber shares the same birthday. (He just turned 70.) It's also Leonard "Chico" Marx's birthday. (He's selling tootsy-fruitsy ice-a cream up in heaven, no doubt.)

 

The first Sondheim show I got to know well (aside from West Side Story) was Company. I think the first one I saw was Sweeney Todd.

 

Sondheim is currently working on a new musical, which I hope we get to see. (I'm saying that not just because of his age, but also because his last show took a number of years to get written and produced - and even then it was in 2 final stages - first as Bounce, then reworked as Road Show.) The yet unnamed show (as far as I know) is a collaboration with playwright David Ives, and is based on 2 films by Luis Bunuel - The Exterminating Angel and The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie. I'm very intrigued to see (and hear) what that will be like.

 

Happy belated birthday, Steve!

[TruthBTold]

It just staggers me that it would be hard for Sondheim to get something produced. He is the premier musical writer of the 20th century.

[+ WilliamM]

It just staggers me that it would be hard for Sondheim to get something produced. He is the premier musical writer of the 20th century.

 

Rodgers and Hart

Rodgers and Hammerstein

Rodgers ("No Strings")

[TruthBTold]

Rodgers and Hart

Rodgers and Hammerstein

Rodgers ("No Strings")

 

True, true, true, true. I should have qualified that. Perhaps I should have stated at least the 70s and 80s and perhaps part of the 60s. Please give me that.

[bostonman]

I’m not so ready to give Rodgers so much credit for the post-Hammerstein years - yes, some good tunes still, but barely any classics beyond “The Sweetest Sounds.” And he never really found suitable writing partners after Hammerstein, including himself (Rodgers was not a skilled lyricist lol). But I will give him credit for his overall longevity in the biz.

 

And, his collaboration with Sondheim, Do I Hear A Waltz - again, full of decent tunes and some great lyrics, but an artistic disaster. (Sondheim likes to refer to it as a “why” musical - that is, what is it that called out for this property to be musicalized?)

Edited March 27, 2018 by bostonman

[+ WilliamM]

He is the premier musical writer of the 20th century.

 

The discussion was originally meant to only include the 20th century. Gershwin is a possible choice as well. Harold Arlen too.

[bostonman]

The discussion was originally meant to only include the 20th century. Gershwin is a possible choice as well. Harold Arlen too.

 

And Berlin, and Porter, and Kern...and Loesser, and Styne, and Kander...etc etc...lots of extraordinary talents in the last century. No need to name one above the others, no need for a contest. We're richer for all of them.

 

Sondheim really hasn't written much in this 21st century, aside from the show that eventually became Bounce and now Road Show. His greatest work is indeed all in the 20th century. That's not a dig, just an observation. I do look forward to his new show.

[TruthBTold]

True, true, true, true. I should have qualified that. Perhaps I should have stated at least the 70s and 80s and perhaps part of the 60s. Please give me that.

 

I do recognize that he mainly produced his most masterful works in the 20th century and mentioned so. Of course, he was in his prime and had some wonderful partners. Moreover, there were wonderful musical stars begging to appear in his shows. At any rate, he will go down as one of the masterful writer/ composers of the 20th century. And, of course, he had his flops that I am sure we all remember.

[+ WilliamM]

Ethel Merman and Mary Martin were a generation older than Sondheim, and he did not represent the Broadway they knew.

 

Merman requested that Sondheim only write the lyrics for Gypsy. Years later Sondheim wrote special lyrics for "Send in the Clowns" for the one-night concert on Broadway by Merman and Martin. Ethel and Mary opened the concert by singing "Send in the Clown" backstage and then on stage.

 

The producer of the concert had to find someone in the audience who did a bootleg to fill in words not picked up backstage.

Edited March 27, 2018 by WilliamM

[nsguy45]

I would like to know what Stephen Sondheim, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Jerry Herman truly think of each other's works. When he won the Tony for La Cage in 1984, Jerry took a mild swipe at Sondheim in his acceptance speech. In a filmed interview, to the interviewer's question as to whether Sondheim resented the fact that ALW's musicals were more financially successful than his, Sondheim replied, "Well, I would most want to write musicals that I could be proud of . . .". Ouch!

[bostonman]

When he won the Tony for La Cage in 1984, Jerry took a mild swipe at Sondheim in his acceptance speech.

 

We all felt, in the context of the moment, that that's what that was, but Herman tried to explain later than it wasn't, and I believe him. I think what he was trying to get at was that musicals (and musical theatre songwriting) in general were changing beyond his generation's style, and that it was a real surprise for him that people still wanted to hear his style of "old-fashioned" writing. In context, it felt like a dig because Sunday In The Park was his obvious contender - but his comment was meant to be more an affirmation than a swipe. Though it's easy to see why we would think otherwise.

[bostonman]

Ethel Merman and Mary Martin were a generation older than Sondheim, and he did not represent the Broadway they knew.

 

Merman requested that Sondheim only write the lyrics for Gypsy.

 

Merman didn't yet know who Sondheim was. Most people didn't, as he really didn't get the billing and credit he deserved for his lyrics to West Side Story, only 2 years before Gypsy. I don't think Merman "requested" anything of Sondheim - what she requested was a composer she already knew and trusted, to write a score that would fit her. I don't think she had any say in who the lyricist would be. We may forget that Sondheim was still just a kid then - and not a "name" yet.

 

Had producer Lemuel Ayers not passed away in 1955, there's a good chance that Sondheim's first professional show, Saturday Night, would have been on Broadway that year, and he would have had something to his credit as a composer. But as it is, there wasn't a full production of that show until 1997. But even with his wonderful lyrics for West Side, Sondheim was still an unknown, and there's no logical way that Merman would have "requested" he do the lyrics. Only perhaps that she ok'd his participation once it was set. She was really only concerned about who was writing the score.

[+ WilliamM]

Merman didn't yet know who Sondheim was. Most people didn't, as he really didn't get the billing and credit he deserved for his lyrics to West Side Story, only 2 years before Gypsy. I don't think Merman "requested" anything of Sondheim - what she requested was a composer she already knew and trusted, to write a score that would fit her. I don't think she had any say in who the lyricist would be. We may forget that Sondheim was still just a kid then - and not a "name" yet.

 

Had producer Lemuel Ayers not passed away in 1955, there's a good chance that Sondheim's first professional show, Saturday Night, would have been on Broadway that year, and he would have had something to his credit as a composer. But as it is, there wasn't a full production of that show until 1997. But even with his wonderful lyrics for West Side, Sondheim was still an unknown, and there's no logical way that Merman would have "requested" he do the lyrics. Only perhaps that she ok'd his participation once it was set. She was really only concerned about who was writing the score.

 

I wrote essentially the same thing in much less space.

 

"I don't think she had any say in who the lyricist would be"

 

Of course she did.

 

Leland Hayward and David Merrick wanted Merman for "Gypsy." There was no question she would sell tickets. A musical about Gypsy Rose Lee's mom was hardly a guarantee for a financial success.

[bostonman]

"I don't think she had any say in who the lyricist would be"

 

Of course she did.

 

From Finishing The Hat:

 

"Originally, Arthur [Laurents], Jerry [Robbins] and the producers had asked me to write the music as well as the lyrics for the show - but Ethel was reluctant to take a chance on an unknown composer and suggested Jule Styne. Arthur tried to persuade me to write lyrics only, but after West Side Story I was afraid of being pigeonholed forever as a lyricist...so I refused. It was Oscar who convinced me otherwise..."

 

This is essentially always the version of the story I've heard, in various forms. Sondheim was already on the gig before Merman had said anything, and it seems she then only had say on the composing side of things. She may have acquiesced that this Steven guy she didn't know could stay on as lyricist, but she didn't pick or suggest a lyricist - he was clearly already hired. I doubt she "requested that Sondheim only write the lyrics" as you said - I would assume she only went along with the idea because he had already been offered a job with the writing team - and Laurents, Robbins, and the producers, who had hired him, weren't going to let him go entirely. She probably had no real say in the matter. I tend to think that if she did, she would have also requested a lyricist she knew very well, instead of a relative newbie.

 

However (also in a detailed description in Finishing The Hat,) Sondheim DID write the music for "Rose's Turn" - mostly adapted from Styne's tunes, of course, but arranged and routined by Sondheim and Jerome Robbins in a late-night session. So he did have a hand in the music, just a little.

 

There's also a story that intimates that Sondheim may have written both music and lyrics (it's unclear about the music) to an intro verse to "Some People" shortly before opening - he felt the transition from dialogue to song was clumsy and needed that extra bit of help - but Merman refused to learn it - it was too late in the process for her to add or change ANYTHING in her material. As Sondheim relates in the book Sondheim & Co, he was then told the story of Merman refusing to sing a perfected new refrain by Irving Berlin for "The Hostess With The Mostess" - declaring, "call me Miss Bird's Eye - this show is frozen!!"

[+ WilliamM]

I have read about Merman's views on Sondheim many times. She never had a particular good relationship with Sondheim. They were both at fault.

 

You are giving Sondheim's view. I'll stick with Merman's.

 

The producers (Merrick and Hayward) needed Merman far more than Sondheim. Leland Hayward knew Merman very well, and was looking after her interests. Jerome Robbins too

Edited March 27, 2018 by WilliamM

[+ WilliamM]

There's also a story that intimates that Sondheim may have written both music and lyrics (it's unclear about the music) to an intro verse to "Some People" shortly before opening - he felt the transition from dialogue to song was clumsy and needed that extra bit of help - but Merman refused to learn it - it was too late in the process for her to add or change ANYTHING in her material. As Sondheim relates in the book Sondheim & Co, he was then told the story of Merman refusing to sing a perfected new refrain by Irving Berlin for "The Hostess With The Mostess" - declaring, "call me Miss Bird's Eye - this show is frozen!!"

 

My response: Merman was a bit like Trump. All about me. Since Rodgers and Hammerstein produced "Annie Get Your Gun," I am amazed that Sondheim was surprised when she would not changed anything. Merman believed R&H tricked her into another year of "Annie" and never got over it. Not a particularly nice person; she expected everyone to bow down to her needs -- then she married Ernest Borgnine. (for a few weeks).

[bostonman]

then she married Ernest Borgnine. (for a few weeks).

 

Yes - and I think I've heard various conjectures as to what happened...though the most credible seemed to be about some unkind comments he made about her in public, I think. (I can't remember specifically - but maybe you know?)

 

Merman was a bit like Trump. All about me.

 

I have heard (I think this is attributed to Laurents) that Merman's initial dismissal of Sondheim composing Gypsy went something like "no unknown is going to write this score FOR ME!!!" - and Sondheim remembered that "FOR ME" when he helped put together "Rose's Turn"...

 

(Could be apocryphal, but it's a fun story...)

[TruthBTold]

I would like to know what Stephen Sondheim, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Jerry Herman truly think of each other's works. When he won the Tony for La Cage in 1984, Jerry took a mild swipe at Sondheim in his acceptance speech. In a filmed interview, to the interviewer's question as to whether Sondheim resented the fact that ALW's musicals were more financially successful than his, Sondheim replied, "Well, I would most want to write musicals that I could be proud of . . .". Ouch!

 

I definitely agree with Sondheim. Sometimes crap sells a lot more than it should.

[+ WilliamM]

 

 

 

1953

 

Arthur Laurent's script for "Gypsy" signed by Ethel Merman, Jack Klugman and Stephen Sondheim.

 

I am much more aware of Mary Martin's signature because she enjoyed meeting people unlike Merman.

Edited March 28, 2018 by WilliamM