Show Boat - Live from Lincoln Center broadcast

[N13]

Back to topic. I started watching the blu ray of the San Francisco Opera's production of Show Boat. Turned it off after 15 minutes. Talk about mis-casting!!!! Bad directing!!!! and a waste of time. Watched the 1951 MGM version instead. It holds up beautifully!!!

[MrMiniver]

Back to topic. I started watching the blu ray of the San Francisco Opera's production of Show Boat. Turned it off after 15 minutes. Talk about mis-casting!!!! Bad directing!!!! and a waste of time. Watched the 1951 MGM version instead. It holds up beautifully!!!

 

Gotta disagree with you on the latter. The 1951 version is absymal. Talk about bad casting. Zaftig Kathryn Grayson who can't act at all, Ava Gardner who can't sing, Agnes Moorehead who I normally love just shrill and awful. And what the do with the story, practically chop it in half and throw the 2nd act out. Go back to 1936. That version is far superior with an almost 40 year old Irene Dunne completely convincing as a teenager while Grayson always looks like an old matron and she wasn't even 30 years old.

[N13]

Gotta disagree with you on the latter. The 1951 version is absymal. Talk about bad casting. Zaftig Kathryn Grayson who can't act at all, Ava Gardner who can't sing, Agnes Moorehead who I normally love just shrill and awful. And what the do with the story, practically chop it in half and throw the 2nd act out. Go back to 1936. That version is far superior with an almost 40 year old Irene Dunne completely convincing as a teenager while Grayson always looks like an old matron and she wasn't even 30 years old.

 

It is a glossy MGM extravaganza that entertained! That is not always a bad thing. Will watch the 1936 version tonight. I do, however, like Grayson and think Gardner was cheated out of a nomination in supporting actress catagory

[MrMiniver]

It is a glossy MGM extravaganza that entertained! That is not always a bad thing. Will watch the 1936 version tonight. I do, however, like Grayson and think Gardner was cheated out of a nomination in supporting actress catagory

 

Honestly, I watched the restored version a few months ago and I was occasionally entertained but mostly appalled. I just can't get past how badly they butchered it and how unbelievably awful Kathryn Grayson is. She is one of those mysteries of the silver screen (like June Allyson and Esther Williams): one of those minimally talented people who somehow became stars. She is simply so badly miscast and her acting is so non-existent. Who did she blow to get that career?

[N13]

Don't know why the intense dislike of Grayson. I also happen to like June Allyson and Esther Williams. To each his own taste I guess. Watched the 1936 version this evening. Very entertaining but seriously dated. So much politically incorrect.....but that was the times in which it was made. They could never get away with it today. I will say that within its time frame it was not mean or intentionally vicious although in our time it is definitely not in the best of taste. Sort of like "The Ubangi Love Song" in "Ladies of the Chorus."

[+ WilliamM]

I went to that concert in San Francisco. It was MONUMENTAL. They gathered a whole bunch of greats to re-create their original roles.

 

Were there several concerts? I remember a concert that played on cable and PBS that included the people you mentioned plus Mary Martin & her grandaughter, Debbie Reynolds, Tom Bosley and perhaps a few other people. You did write, "you name it they were there," so my comment is NOT meant as critical.

[MrMiniver]

Don't know why the intense dislike of Grayson. I also happen to like June Allyson and Esther Williams. To each his own taste I guess. Watched the 1936 version this evening. Very entertaining but seriously dated. So much politically incorrect.....but that was the times in which it was made. They could never get away with it today. I will say that within its time frame it was not mean or intentionally vicious although in our time it is definitely not in the best of taste. Sort of like "The Ubangi Love Song" in "Ladies of the Chorus."

 

It's not dislike. I don't think she can act. That's not dislike. I don't know her. I can't dislike someone I don't know. I don't think she has any talent. The 1936 version is the closest we will ever see on film to what the original Broadway show looked like with people who were actually involved in the creation of the show and the roles. It isn't remotely "dated." I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Politically incorrect? That's just about the stupidest phrase ever invented. The film is a masterpiece made by a great director and great creative team starring the best talent of the time.

 

The idea that art should be changed over the years to suit the "politically correct" is abhorrent.

[MrMiniver]

Were there several concerts? I remember a concert that played on cable and PBS that included the people you mentioned plus Mary Martin & her grandaughter, Debbie Reynolds, Tom Bosley and perhaps a few other people. You did write, "you name it they were there," so my comment is meant as critical.

 

I attended a single concert not several, so I can't answer your question. I remember Debbie Reynolds doing Irene, Tom Bosley hosted. I don't remember Mary Martin's granddaughter but that's not probably something I would remember. There was Ray Walston, Chita Rivera, Diahann Carroll ... a few others if I get out my old program.

[+ WilliamM]

MrMiniver, I just read my quote above. My intention was to write: ".....so my comment is NOT meant as critical."

 

I am sorry.

[actor61]

Gotta disagree with you on the latter. The 1951 version is absymal. Talk about bad casting. Zaftig Kathryn Grayson who can't act at all, Ava Gardner who can't sing, Agnes Moorehead who I normally love just shrill and awful. And what the do with the story, practically chop it in half and throw the 2nd act out. Go back to 1936. That version is far superior with an almost 40 year old Irene Dunne completely convincing as a teenager while Grayson always looks like an old matron and she wasn't even 30 years old.

Kathryn Grayson replaced Julie Andrews in "Camelot" and also toured with it. I had a friend, now deceased, who was in the original with Andrews and Burton and then continued in the show when Grayson took over. He told me she sold a lot of tickets, especially on the road, but was hopeless onstage. She never learned her lines. This was in the days before the infamous ear pieces that actors are now using, so they had her lines on cue cards in the wings and on the floor downstage. She had no trouble with lyrics but she was a trained singer so that's not surprising. Apparently, she called in sick a lot too because she was not used to doing 8 shows a week or sustaining a character for 3 hours; she was used to short takes in movies and that's the only technique she knew. It's just appalling how B'way hires these inept movie stars and is then surprised when they can't deliver the goods onstage. But it has been going on since time began and will never change. Or course, there have been some movie stars who have been able to cross over without any problem from film to stage or stage to film - Bob Hope, Ray Bolger, Paul Robeson, Debbie Ryenolds, Diahann Carroll - but they have mostly been old school. The new crop tries and fails most of the time. Or they do limited runs so their deficiencies can't be criticized too severely. As an actor, it infuriates me when I read about big stars having to use ear pieces to be fed their lines because they can't - or won't - memorize them. A career in the movies and theatre is so dependent on breaks, timing, luck - whatever you want to call it. I know actors Bruce Willis's age, for example, who would blow up the stage in "Misery" but for lack of a break, they're waiting tables and he's using an ear piece on Broadway. Willis is sometimes very good in movies but obviously, Broadway is not his thing. I'd love to know what his costar, Laurie Metcalfe, thinks about the situation. I have seen her onstage many times and she is always superb. Her performance as the mother in "All My Sons" in Los Angeles (with Len Cariou and Neil Patrick Harris) a few years back still haunts me. She was magnificent. I also saw her in "November" with Nathan Lane, a mediocre David Mamet play, but the 2 of them were supremely funny, especially Metcalfe.

 

Oh lord, I'm prattling on again but I get so passionate about theatre. Sorry.

[N13]

[quote=It isn't remotely "dated." I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Politically incorrect? That's just about the stupidest phrase ever invented. The film is a masterpiece made by a great director and great creative team starring the best talent of the time.

The idea that art should be changed over the years to suit the "politically correct" is abhorrent.

[quote=It isn't remotely "dated." I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Politically incorrect? That's just about the stupidest phrase ever invented. The film is a masterpiece made by a great director and great creative team starring the best talent of the time.

The idea that art should be changed over the years to suit the "politically correct" is abhorrent.[quote=It isn't remotely "dated." I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Politically incorrect? That's just about the stupidest phrase ever invented. The film is a masterpiece made by a great director and great creative team starring the best talent of the time.

The idea that art should be changed over the years to suit the "politically correct" is abhorrent.

 

[quote=It isn't remotely "dated." I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Politically incorrect? That's just about the stupidest phrase ever invented. The film is a masterpiece made by a great director and great creative team starring the best talent of the time.

The idea that art should be changed over the years to suit the "politically correct" is abhorrent.

Mr. Miniver, possibly it is you that does not understand the meaning of the word.

dated

adjective dat·ed

: coming from or belonging to a time in the past

 

I agree that it was a masterpiece in its time and is a very worthwhile addition to the great films but, it does come from a time in the past.

 

As for "Politically correct" like it or not we are being forced to live with the ramifications of this (and I agree - abhorrent) phrase.

 

Just a question and not an attack: Am I misunderstanding your posts? Are you being snarky or is it just reading that way? I would like to think the latter.

[MrMiniver]

 

That is not how the word "dated" is used to refer to a work of art, a play, or movie. If that were the case, everything created five minutes ago would be "dated."

[MrMiniver]

Kathryn Grayson replaced Julie Andrews in "Camelot" and also toured with it. I had a friend, now deceased, who was in the original with Andrews and Burton and then continued in the show when Grayson took over. He told me she sold a lot of tickets, especially on the road, but was hopeless onstage. She never learned her lines. This was in the days before the infamous ear pieces that actors are now using, so they had her lines on cue cards in the wings and on the floor downstage. She had no trouble with lyrics but she was a trained singer so that's not surprising. Apparently, she called in sick a lot too because she was not used to doing 8 shows a week or sustaining a character for 3 hours; she was used to short takes in movies and that's the only technique she knew. It's just appalling how B'way hires these inept movie stars and is then surprised when they can't deliver the goods onstage. But it has been going on since time began and will never change. Or course, there have been some movie stars who have been able to cross over without any problem from film to stage or stage to film - Bob Hope, Ray Bolger, Paul Robeson, Debbie Ryenolds, Diahann Carroll - but they have mostly been old school. The new crop tries and fails most of the time. Or they do limited runs so their deficiencies can't be criticized too severely. As an actor, it infuriates me when I read about big stars having to use ear pieces to be fed their lines because they can't - or won't - memorize them. A career in the movies and theatre is so dependent on breaks, timing, luck - whatever you want to call it. I know actors Bruce Willis's age, for example, who would blow up the stage in "Misery" but for lack of a break, they're waiting tables and he's using an ear piece on Broadway. Willis is sometimes very good in movies but obviously, Broadway is not his thing. I'd love to know what his costar, Laurie Metcalfe, thinks about the situation. I have seen her onstage many times and she is always superb. Her performance as the mother in "All My Sons" in Los Angeles (with Len Cariou and Neil Patrick Harris) a few years back still haunts me. She was magnificent. I also saw her in "November" with Nathan Lane, a mediocre David Mamet play, but the 2 of them were supremely funny, especially Metcalfe.

 

Oh lord, I'm prattling on again but I get so passionate about theatre. Sorry.

 

Grayson just couldn't act which is why she had a relatively short movie career. As soon as her very limited range of films went out of fashion, she was finished. She did summer stock and stuff like that but without the MGM machine behind her, she was a bust. I still remember one of her last big stage appearances on the Oscars (maybe 1985?). It was a reunion of big MGM musical stars. They all looked great (okay, not Esther Williams), in good shape for their ages, and they moved around with ease. Then came Grayson, big as a house, in a dress that made her look even bigger. She could barely move and Howard Keel had to maneuver her across the stage. It was really sad and embarassing.

[Lankypeters]

I'm pretty sure South Pacific was written for Martin, with Pinza approached later. It's pretty astonishing that they never actually sing together except for about one line.

 

Martin's contract for "South Pacific" specified that she not sing a duet with Pinza since he was operatic and she, however good as a pop singer, was not. The brief moment they do sing together, at the party scene that ends Act One, they seem to be high on the evening and on the champagne and so just "fool around" -- sort of like people singing in the shower.

[Lankypeters]

Like many show biz autobios -- maybe all autobios -- Mary's should be taken with a box of salt.

[N13]

That is not how the word "dated" is used to refer to a work of art, a play, or movie. If that were the case, everything created five minutes ago would be "dated."

 

In fact this is not accurate. There are paintings, plays and movies that transcend time and do not reflect when they were made, but stand as timeless. There are others that are indicative of the period in which they were made. This does not minimize them, but rather places them in or of a specific time and/or place. "Some Like it Hot" is timeless; "All About Eve" is timeless; "Casablanca" is timeless; "Showboat" (1936) is a wonderful movie, but it shows when it was made and is not timeless.

[MrMiniver]

In fact this is not accurate. There are paintings, plays and movies that transcend time and do not reflect when they were made, but stand as timeless. There are others that are indicative of the period in which they were made. This does not minimize them, but rather places them in or of a specific time and/or place. "Some Like it Hot" is timeless; "All About Eve" is timeless; "Casablanca" is timeless; "Showboat" (1936) is a wonderful movie, but it shows when it was made and is not timeless.

 

Actually, what you said above exactly proves my point. But your examples are also opinions and under the definition you provided would all be considered "dated." Casablanca "shows when it was made" just as much as Show Boat does. And so does All About Eve.

[Lankypeters]

The emotional core of "Show Boat," expressed in its plot and score, is timeless in any version, styles and techniques aside.

[MrMiniver]

 

Actually, her contract said no such thing. Rodgers and Hammerstein just knew her limitations and wrote it that way.

[MrMiniver]

The emotional core of "Show Boat," expressed in its plot and score, is timeless in any version, styles and techniques aside.

 

Yep, you're absolutely right. Far more "timeless" than All About Even (which I love) which is so 1950 theater that it wouldn't work if placed at any other time.

[Lankypeters]

In fact this is not accurate.

 

Opinions are not facts and thus cannot be deemed "true," "false," "accurate," or "inaccurate."

[Lankypeters]

Actually, her contract said no such thing. Rodgers and Hammerstein just knew her limitations and wrote it that way.

I haven't read her contract -- have you? -- but it has been reported that the "no duets" clause was part of it.

[N13]

Quote from Lankypeters "Opinions are not facts and thus cannot be deemed "true," "false," "accurate," or "inaccurate."

 

Point very well taken!

[actor61]

Like many show biz autobios -- maybe all autobios -- Mary's should be taken with a box of salt.

I've also read that Pinza insisted that he not sing more than 12 minutes all together in the show. It's probably apocryphal but it's a legend that has persisted. I once looked at the original cast album and his songs add up to just under 12 minutes in duration but I still find it kind of hard to believe that an actor would stipulate such a condition. But then he was an opera star and a lot of them, especially in those days, were known for outrageous demands, so who knows?

 

BTW, have you seen the interview with Rita Moreno regarding her early t.v. career? She did quite a few live broadcasts and she worked with Pinza on some special. She is scathing in her remarks about him; apparently, his behavior towards the young women in the cast bordered on harrassment. Florence Henderson didn't have much good to say about him when they were in "Fanny" together either.

 

Re: Mary Martin. My favorite story, which I'm pretty sure is true, is that after she was signed for "I Do! I Do!" and they then offered the male role to Robert Preston, he was asked what he would want to do the show with her and his only demand was "I just want what Mary gets". He later won the Tony for the show and she didn't.

[Lankypeters]

Pinza doesn't get much good coverage. He missed many performances of "South Pacific." I think in his autobio., Richard Rodgers said Pinza took off to play golf. Rodgers also related, with a certain relish, that after Pinza left the show, he went to Hollywood and made a film or two and flopped big time. (Anyone seen "Mr. Imperium" lately?) The story that Pinza limited his singing to twelve minutes in SP has been published in several accounts. (Did you also know that the longest the orchestra goes without playing -- not counting intermission -- in this heavily scored musical is eight minutes? This from a friend who played pit in the recent Lincoln Center revival.)