Law Change In Northern Ireland

[SteveEscort]

From midnight on the 13th January, the Northern Irish government made changes to the law regarding the purchase of sex in the country of Northern Ireland. The changes make it illegal for a client to purchase a sexual service but allows escort work to remain legal.

 

Similar laws were proposed in Scotland in 2013 but failed it make it through Parliament. Another similar law was proposed in England just a few months ago but Members of Parliament didn't support it.

 

Although England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales make up the United Kingdom, they are in fact completely separate countries with different laws and what is law in one country is not necessarily law in another. Smoking in public places was outlawed in Scotland before England and shops can open all day Sunday in Scotland but are only allowed to open 10-4 or 11-5 in England. Northern Ireland and Scotland also produce their own sterling (GBP) bank notes.

 

It's a bit worrying but I can't see the trend making it over the water to England, certainly not after being defeated in England late last year and in Scotland shortly before. Homosexuality was made legal in England and Wales in 1967 but was still a criminal offence in Northern Ireland until 1982 Same sex marriage is still not legal in Northern Ireland either.

 

In Sweden, where this criminalisation of clients has been law for a number of years, has not seen any reduction in crime surrounding prostitution, which the law was introduced to tackle. It won't in Northern Ireland either but I suspect the Irish Republic will soon follow suit. Like England, Scotland and Wales, there is no real physical border between the countries of Ireland and Northern Ireland and free movement without the need for a passport is allowed between the two countries and the likewise between Ireland and the UK mainland, therefore trafficking, which is the essence of this new law (their favourite word), can't and won't be stopped.

[+ Gar1eth]

I realize this law is to combat sex trafficking which I approve of in theory. But it takes two (or more ) to tango as they say. And I can't really see that prosecuting clients will make much of a difference unless the penalties are really draconian. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

Gman

[Guest]

 

Although England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales make up the United Kingdom, they are in fact completely separate countries with different laws and what is law in one country is not necessarily law in another. Smoking in public places was outlawed in Scotland before England and shops can open all day Sunday in Scotland but are only allowed to open 10-4 or 11-5 in England. Northern Ireland and Scotland also produce their own sterling (GBP) bank notes.

 

The fact that different places have different laws doesn't make them separate countries. Different US states have extremely different laws, but that does not make them separate countries. Nevada and California have very different laws with respect to prostitution, for example. But even though vehicles traveling from Nevada to California are subject to inspection (have to pass through an inspection station), they are not separate countries. In fact, the Nevada county where I'm currently located, Washoe County, has different laws regarding prostitution than Storey County, about 20 miles away (the former doesn't allow prostitution, the latter allows not only prostitution but regulated brothels as well).

With respect to smoking laws, the city where I live has incredibly restrictive laws on smoking. In the city where I live, it's illegal to smoke even outdoors, in places like public parks, and, believe it or not, it's even illegal to smoke in your own home if your home is either attached or in close proximity of another dwelling!!! Yet only a lunatic would describe my city as a separate country, although its laws differ from those of neighboring cities.

Likewise, monetary currencies certainly do not define a nation, either. Pounds from any part of the UK are interchangeable. Just as a pound printed by the Bank of Scotland is interchangeable with one printed by the Bank of England, a dollar printed the the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco is interchangeable with a dollar printed by the Federal Reserve Bank in New York or Chicago. The last time I took a cruise around Britain and Ireland, I picked up some "Northern Irish" pounds at the Giant's Causeway, and used it to pay my cab fare from the ship to the train station in Dover, England. The money looks different, but the value is the same, and they are interchangeable. Ireland, Montenegro, Greece, and Andorra all use the Euro, but they are not the same country. Montenegro and Andorra aren't even part of the EU. Likewise, the Dutch islands of Statia and Saba, as well as some other countries such as Panama use the US Dollar as their currency, yet they are not part of the United States.

I don't think there's a single country which has a separate Embassy/High Commission/Consulate for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales, and these regions are not recognized as separate countries by the UN either. So while people in those areas may think of themselves as being in separate countries, they are not. And don't try to use the argument that there are separate languages (Welsh, Gaelic, etc), since there are almost countless countries with multiple official (and non-official) languages.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sk5hxaatHP4/TBWwBjjM26I/AAAAAAAAAKY/gwr9ifIMJLI/s1600/IMG_4039a.JPG

 

[SteveEscort]

The fact that different places have different laws doesn't make them separate countries.

 

Dear me, what got into you. I am trying to report something that affects people involved in sex work and you go all geography teacher on me. Having lived in both England and Scotland for my entire life and studied History and Geography at high school, I do know what I am talking about.

 

For your information Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England are indeed separate countries which form part of the United Kingdom. They are not sovereign states in their own right. Northern Ireland is sometimes referred to a province. Scotland voted on becoming it's own sovereign state in 2014 and this was narrowly rejected by the Scottish Citizens. Great Britain refers to the mainland and Great Britain is the countries of England, Scotland and Wales and not Northern Ireland. A British Passport states "European Union --- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" on the front of it. Birth citizens of Northern Ireland are entitled to an Irish passport as well as a British Passport.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_passport

 

I don't think there's a single country which has a separate Embassy/High Commission/Consulate for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales, and these regions are not recognized as separate countries by the UN either. So while people in those areas may think of themselves as being in separate countries, they are not. And don't try to use the argument that there are separate languages (Welsh, Gaelic, etc), since there are almost countless countries with multiple official (and non-official) languages.

 

I don't think there is either because they all form part of the United Kingdom which as a whole oversees the security and defence of all jurisdictions it represents as well as overseeing the British Crown Dependencies of the Falkland Islands and islands of Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark and Jersey amongst many others.

 

This is what the border between Scotland and England looks like

 

http://www.freefoto.com/images/17/24/17_24_3---English-Border--Carter-Bar_web.jpg

 

Wales and England

 

http://website.lineone.net/~maj15/wales/border.jpg

 

Ireland and Northern Ireland

 

http://www.donegaldaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2829214110.jpg

[SteveEscort]

I realize this law is to combat sex trafficking which I approve of in theory. But it takes two (or more ) to tango as they say. And I can't really see that prosecuting clients will make much of a difference unless the penalties are really draconian. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

Gman

 

Northern Ireland has always been very singular in it's outlook, it's a strange country and their views are, at times, ultra conservative. The law is designed to frighten away clients, lowering the amount of work available to sex workers therefore eradicating the problem but very few clients are perturbed by this law. It's certainly not changed anything in Sweden or Norway. I've never been to Northern Ireland but from what I am told time and time again, a lot of the sex work is controlled by gangs etc, something virtually unheard of in England. I know of a female escort from Newcastle who was asked to leave her hotel in Belfast or "pay up", (give a cut of her money to some men who threatened her). She never went back. There are other escorts from England and Scotland who do tours to Belfast who love it and don't encounter any problems but I have heard too many bad reports from too many people.

 

By criminalising clients, the law is making them think twice about using the service but using and purchasing drugs is illegal and that doesn't stop anyone. Escort work (sex work) continues to be legal in Northern Ireland, so the girls and boys can still advertise as they always did. It's unlikely to change anything but because no one else has reported on this here I thought it was worth a mention, if only to educate.

[Guest]

Getting even stranger now if we call a place a country just because there is a sign welcoming/informing motorists of entry into a geographical area. By that definition almost every state, county, and city in the US is a country. In fact, some larger cities, such as NYC, Chicago, and Los Angeles, have signs letting motorists know when they are entering sub-sections of the city:

http://www.losfeliztoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Los-feliz1.jpg

 

http://takesunset.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/800px_Silver_Lake_Sign.jpg

 

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/welcome-to-queens-sign-new-york-september-traffic-border-brooklyn-45774241.jpg

[Guest]

In case you're not well traveled, all EU countries use the same standard sign to let motorists know when they're entering a new country. Yours looks like this:

 

The Belgian Steve's looks like this:

http://www.globalwheeling.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Belgian-Border1.jpg

 

or this:

http://travellingwithgayle1.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/100_5116.jpg

 

or this, depending on what part of the country you enter (Dutch, French, or German-speaking):

http://st.depositphotos.com/1050401/2146/i/950/depositphotos_21461335-Border-of-Belgium.jpg

 

There is no Scottish, Welsh, or English Ambassador to the United Nations, the U.S. , or any other country. Therefore, these regions are NOT countries.

[SteveEscort]

England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales were countries long before the United States was even inhabited

 

History does not take it's precedent from the United States.

 

The countries of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales make up the United Kingdom. You can argue all you like. The only exception is that Northern Ireland can be regarded as a province as it's annexed from the remainder of Ireland. The United Kingdom and Ireland jointly make strategic decisions regarding Northern Ireland.

 

Please don't apply your United States principles on countries that have been here for thousands of years.

 

There might not be an English ambassador but theres an England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales football teams, cricket teams etc. The national health service in the UK is different in Scotland as it is in England The BBC has 4 variations of it's main tv channels. BBC Northern Ireland is different to BBC Scotland. BBC Wales and each broadcast from the respective capital cities of Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff. They also all have their own dedicated countrywide radio stations.

 

No one in the United Kingdom regards the countries to be states. They are countries. You have the United States of America, the clue is in the words, we have the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, clue is in the words.

 

Now stop hijacking a post I put on here, designed to educate people about a change in escorting/prostitution laws which may affect someone at sometime.

[zeyfur]

Since I live in England , I can confirm that the United Kingdom consists of four countries England , Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[Scorpio]

Ireland and Northern Ireland

 

http://www.donegaldaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2829214110.jpg

 

In case you're not well traveled, all EU countries use the same standard sign to let motorists know when they're entering a new country. Yours looks like this:

 

 

You'll notice that Steve's and Unicorn's picture are taken at the same location. The difference being that Unicorn's is a fake:

 

https://ianjamesparsley.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/welcome-to-northern-ireland/

[SteveEscort]

You'll notice that Steve's and Unicorn's picture are taken at the same location. The difference being that Unicorn's is a fake:

 

https://ianjamesparsley.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/welcome-to-northern-ireland/

 

Totally... I was just going to post that it was fake. I've never seen such a sign in the a United Kingdom.

[SteveEscort]

Since I live in England , I can confirm that the United Kingdom consists of four countries England , Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

Thank god someone else understands the argument. Not that there is one. It wasn't even an argument, I was only reporting what I know is correct in the first place. A country does not have to be a sovereign state

 

Further reading. Constituent Countries

 

Countries which make up a singular sovereign state

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country

 

The world doesn't revolve around the United States and it's development. England is over 2000 years old

 

I didn't think for one minute I'd have to really educate people with this post. I put it on to alert you to something happening in the world. Never thought for a minute I'd have to justify my post.

[Guest]

Since I live in England , I can confirm that the United Kingdom consists of four countries England , Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

What an irrefutable argument! Since I live in California, I can confirm that California is a country. Can't argue that one!

[SteveEscort]

What an irrefutable argument! Since I live in California, I can confirm that California is a country. Can't argue that one!

 

Well you can argue with that because its one of the states that make up the United States of America, we don't have states, we have countries that make up the United Kingdom. How hard is it for you to understand that ?

 

300 years ago in 1700 they didn't think, Gee, lets call England a state like the Americans (that haven't been invented yet) will call their sectors in a century or so.

 

It's like hitting your head off a brick wall with you. Really is. You're insulting your own intelligence. Please take the time to educate yourself. It will take you all of five minutes.

 

France is a sovereign state of more than country, so is the Netherlands and New Zealand. Dear me, more the one anomaly. Your head will be fried at this information. Do you believe everything on Fox News. I suspect you do.

 

Here is more proof, it's obvious you've never read any I have submitted

 

The international standardisation of the United Kingdom ........

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB

[Guest]

France is a sovereign state of more than country, so is the Netherlands and New Zealand.

 

Why don't you go look at the flags flying in front of the United Nations. You will see the flags of the Netherlands, France, and New Zealand. You will not see the flags of England, Wales, or Scotland. That's because they're not recognized as countries by anyone but themselves. The only land border the UK has is the border between the republic and the kingdom. While the United Kingdom sign I found on google images apparently was a fake, I suspect the reason they don't put one up at the republic/kingdom border is that those who consider themselves Irish nationals (mainly Catholics) would probably take it down. The fact remains that, as you noted, the signs denoting entry into England, Scotland, and Wales do not have the EU sign denoting a separate country. Montana calls itself "Big Sky Country." Napa County calls itself "Wine Country." Everyone realizes, however, that the word "country" in those cases is used figuratively, and does not mean that those places are internationally recognized sovereign nations. One cannot just self-declare a country. If other countries don't recognize the statement, there is no country. ISIL is not a country just because they say so.

[MsGuy]

Unicorn, the notion of "country" is a mental construct, not something to be found outside the space between our ears, and, like most natural language constructs, it tends to be a bit fuzzy around the edges.

 

Folks in the British Isles have found it convenient to adopt a dual usage of the word. Sometimes they mean pretty much what you mean by it. But sometimes they use it to make sense of the oddities of British history. Specifically, the British state is constructed from 4 separate nationalities, each with its own particular history and identity, its own local laws and customs, and (at least in the case of Scotland and England) its own separate and distinct established religion.

 

If citizens of Great Britain have no problem thinking (& speaking) of their sovereign state coexisting with 4 separate constituent 'countries', why should folks over here insist on the American usage? If it helps 4 different nationalities rub along together to think of themselves as 4 different countries who send representatives to a common Parliament in Westminister, well then, more power to them.

 

PS. LOL, we will leave "British Identity" (used mostly by people of Caribbean, African or South Asian descent) for a future lecture. Not to mention such strange critters as "Crown Peculiars" and "Crown Dependencies".

[Guest]

I guess the British do have peculiar meanings for some of their words. "He's blowing a fag" means something completely different in Britain than it does in the US (in America it means sucking the penis of a gay guy, but in Britain it means smoking a cigarette). Since this is an American-based message forum, though, let's stick to American usage in order to avoid confusion.

[MsGuy]

... Since this is an American-based message forum, though, let's stick to American usage in order to avoid confusion.

 

OK by me but I'm not sure what the American word is for the islands in the English Channel that are the last remnants of the old Duchy of Normandy. ;-)

[SteveEscort]

Since this is an American-based message forum, though, let's stick to American usage in order to avoid confusion.

 

Since this is an American based forum used by international escorts, let's not

[SteveEscort]

Let's just forget about states and Americanism and lets put this into laymans terms.

 

The European Union is made up of countries

 

Before the European Union was formed in the 1970's, the United Kingdom was made up of countries.

 

The United Kingdom is part (for now) of the European Union. Prior to this it was it's own union of four countries which are now "constituent countries". They are still countries.

 

The United Kingdom was here long before the United States, your rules and thinking don't apply here and it's quite sad that people can't think outside the box. You have anomilies. You adopted the English Language and started sticking Z into words like Standardisation and dropping the U from Colour and spelling Capital as Capitol but we don't insist that our spelling is correct in your country, however you can't think outside the box, America is obviously the all seeing eye and authority but our country is based on history and natural changes to the political landscape, land borders etc and not everything in the world happens the same as it does in the United States. This is something you really really need to get a grip of. Just because escorting is illegal in America it doesn't mean it's illegal here, yet you apply those principles to land borders and can't consider in your realm that something could just be a little bit different.

 

While the United Kingdom sign I found on google images apparently was a fake, I suspect the reason they don't put one up at the republic/kingdom border is that those who consider themselves Irish nationals (mainly Catholics) would probably take it down. The fact remains that, as you noted, the signs denoting entry into England, Scotland, and Wales do not have the EU sign denoting a separate country.

 

It was a fake and was proven to be a fake if you looked the article submitted to you. There was no apparent to it.

 

Why would Irish Nationals take it down when they're also part of the European Union and adopt the European Currency. Your reasoning beggars belief and gets more bizarre with every post. They're more likely to take down the current sign than a European Union one. Where do you get this magic from.

 

Each constituent country does not have a sign because they're a constituent country of the United Kingdom, which as a whole is a sector of the European Union.

[+ WilliamM]

I have been aware of the differences between the U.K. and the U.S. all my life, because my four grandparents were born in Scotland. When asked about my background, I always say Scotch, not British.

 

As others have written in this thread, the differences are difficult to understand unless you stop comparing the American model of states to the U.K.

[zeyfur]

In the FIFA world cup, England , scotland , northern Ireland and Wales compete as four different countries. I will continue to use the term in the local UK context.

[SteveEscort]

In the FIFA world cup, England , scotland , northern Ireland and Wales compete as four different countries. I will continue to use the term in the local UK context.

 

I have been aware of the differences between the U.K. and the U.S. all my life, because my four grandparents were born in Scotland. When asked about my background, I always say Scotch, not British.

 

As others have written in this thread, the differences are difficult to understand unless you stop comparing the American model of states to the U.K.

 

Guys the whole thing has me exhausted. I regret mentioning the differences on the original post but it was meant in the context of what happens in Northern Ireland bares no resemblance to what happens in England, but there again, I don't regret it because it's educated a lot of people, except one, who has decided that California must be a country ????? when it very clearly not.

 

Recorded history didn't start with Independence Day, it started many many thousands of years earlier. Another anomaly we have in England is historical counties that don't exist anymore. Zeyfur, can you imagine him getting his head around the English county of Middlesex. We just don't need to go there, do we, even though you and I understand Middlesex. Parts of Newcastle Upon Tyne arn't in Newcastle Upon Tyne, they're in Durham and parts of London are in Kent and Essex when they're not actually in either Kent or Essex and I am not talking about one or two rogue addresses, it's whole towns. All understood by us. Surrey County Hall which controls the county of Surrey is in Kingston Upon Thames, London, not in Surrey itself, now how is going to apply his principles to that. These strange occurrences would never sit right with our American friends and I don't have a lifetime to explain it. Not everything in the United Kingdom is as clear as a state line sorry.

[Guest]

In the FIFA world cup, England , scotland , northern Ireland and Wales compete as four different countries. I will continue to use the term in the local UK context.

 

Really? FIFA??? Is anyone going to really look me in the eye (figuratively), and tell me that they believe that this is the international organization which decides what's a legitimate country? Sorry, but the purpose of FIFA is to promote interest and viewership of soccer events, not to determine the legitimacy of nationhood. If having Scotland and England fight each other promotes interest in the sport, FIFA will go along with the British parlance. I will accept that in Britain, calling England and Scotland countries is an acceptable use of the word. And there are certainly countries for which the use of the term "country" is highly debatable because few, if any, other countries recognize them, such as Palestine and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. However, not a single country (other than in the UK) recognizes Scotland, England, or Wales as countries. In fact, when asked if they wanted to be a separate country, the Scots quite recently turned out in large numbers and voted against the proposal. So use of the word "country" for those three regions should be limited to the only place that calls them countries, namely Britain.

[SteveEscort]

Really? FIFA??? Is anyone going to really look me in the eye (figuratively), and tell me that they believe that this is the international organization which decides what's a legitimate country? Sorry, but the purpose of FIFA is to promote interest and viewership of soccer events, not to determine the legitimacy of nationhood. If having Scotland and England fight each other promotes interest in the sport, FIFA will go along with the British parlance. I will accept that in Britain, calling England and Scotland countries is an acceptable use of the word. And there are certainly countries for which the use of the term "country" is highly debatable because few, if any, other countries recognize them, such as Palestine and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. However, not a single country (other than in the UK) recognizes Scotland, England, or Wales as countries. In fact, when asked if they wanted to be a separate country, the Scots quite recently turned out in large numbers and voted against the proposal. So use of the word "country" for those three regions should be limited to the only place that calls them countries, namely Britain.

 

I give up, it's like talking to an unreasonable child. Despite all of the facts being presented to you.

 

I haven't got the patience to argue with you anymore. You win..... even though you didn't win, you just showed yourself up for being rather stupid and silly. Despite other people being able to understand it, or somewhat understand it and try themselves to explain it to you, you still have small minded, can't think outside of the box persona.

 

Such a closed mind and very very sad you won't even read and learn stuff.

 

If you can't think outside of your American bubble for just one minute without trying to argue your corner with fake pictures, I have nothing further to add.

 

I started this thread to alert members to a change in the law and you became an argumentative nightmare. This whole argument was not the subject of the post and you've allowed my original post to be lost in your country/boundary drama. Thanks very much.