Ambassador in Belgium caught with male escorts?

[Irtwo]

In all the news stories about this, they don't mention the gender of those the Ambassador met up with. My Belgium friends tell me the park in question (Parc de Bruxelles) is well known for picking up guys only. Thought there might be more comments on this story.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/u-s-ambassador-accused-meeting-hookers-public-park-outed-howard-gutman-report-article-1.1369202?localLinksEnabled=false

[Frequentflier]

In all the news stories about this, they don't mention the gender of those the Ambassador met up with. My Belgium friends tell me the park in question (Parc de Bruxelles) is well known for picking up guys only. Thought there might be more comments on this story.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/u-s-ambassador-accused-meeting-hookers-public-park-outed-howard-gutman-report-article-1.1369202?localLinksEnabled=false

 

People read the NY Daily News?

[+ Gar1eth]

Obviously I don't know anything about this ambassador. But last summer after Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens was killed in Libya, I was talking to an old high school friend who was back in the country briefly visiting family. I mentioned that in all the stories about Ambassador Stevens in contrast to the security agents who were also killed that there was no mention of a wife, girlfriend, significant other, or children. The only family speaking out were his sister and I believe parents. My friend said he didn't know anything about Ambassador Stevens, but he mentioned that there a lot of gays who worked in the State Department. Maybe we are good at languages?

 

Gman

[JT Brooklyn]

Where's my old friend Steven Draker when you need him

 

He does know all things Belgium

[BaronArtz]

For those of you who know French, here is an article in 'La Libre Belgique', a fairly conservative newspaper in Belgium:

 

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/article/821863/affaire-gutman-les-agents-de-securite-ne-l-ont-jamais-vu-faire-des-choses-illegales.html

 

In summary, the article states that the security staff of the ambassador has not seen illegal activities. However, the article also states that, without advising his security staff, the ambassador was seen leaving his residence in the middle of the night to talk a walk in a park that is known as a meeting place with prostitutes. This is attributed to ' the ambassador having well known marital problems, prompting him to take a walk at night to clear is head'. In another article, the Brussels District Attorney's office said that there is no ongoing criminal investigation, nor is there one planned. Keep in mind that prostitution is not illegal in Belgium. Therefore, there is no legal basis for the Brussels DA to investigate. Except when it involves minors, but that would be a different story altogether.

[+ Gar1eth]

For those of you who know French, here is an article in 'La Libre Belgique', a fairly conservative newspaper in Belgium:

 

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/article/821863/affaire-gutman-les-agents-de-securite-ne-l-ont-jamais-vu-faire-des-choses-illegales.html

.

 

So that brings up an interesting question - How many of us know French- or more specifically- how many of us know French well enough to translate a newspaper article? I don't know French at all- but I know I would have trouble translating a German article using my college German.

 

Gman

[BaronArtz]

So that brings up an interesting question - How many of us know French- or more specifically- how many of us know French well enough to translate a newspaper article? I don't know French at all- but I know I would have trouble translating a German article using my college German.

 

Gman

 

I could post Belgian press articles in Dutch, if you prefer ...

[+ Gar1eth]

I could post Belgian press articles in Dutch, if you prefer ...

 

While Dutch is one of my ancestral languages, I am sadly deficient in that language too.

 

Gman

[Irtwo]

This quote from that article that Baron posted is fairly clear, with even limited French, regarding the park: "qui a la réputation d'être un lieu de rencontre la nuit pour les homosexuels." I guess the European papers aren't as shy as the US papers about reporting that part of it.

[BaronArtz]

This quote from that article that Baron posted is fairly clear, with even limited French, regarding the park: "qui a la réputation d'être un lieu de rencontre la nuit pour les homosexuels." I guess the European papers aren't as shy as the US papers about reporting that part of it.

 

Right. There is no reason for the papers to be shy about it, there is nothing illegal about hiring prostitutes in Belgium, nor would it be illegal in most European countries I think. Nor is it illegal for gay men to meet in a park.

 

For those of you who are interested, the literal translation of that quote is: "a park that has a reputation as a meeting place at night for homosexuals". It does not state that the park is a place to meet with prostitutes.

 

Now you could say: but he is married. While adultery - if that is what happened - is technically speaking a crime in Belgium, it is very rarely prosecuted. And civil courts will not consider 'adultery' as a basis to grant a divorce.

 

Therefore, the chance that prosecutors or courts in Belgium will intervene in this matter is nil.

[Guest]

So that brings up an interesting question - How many of us know French- or more specifically- how many of us know French well enough to translate a newspaper article? I don't know French at all- but I know I would have trouble translating a German article using my college German.

 

Gman

 

I speak French. Basically, the article says that there is no evidence anyone saw him do anything, just that he's been seen going alone at night in the Parc de Bruxelles, known for gay hook-ups, at night. The "evidence" seems to be "ces informations provient de ragots de bureaux," or office gossip. He has had marital problems. It would be difficult for me to imagine that he brought in a guy to the embassy compound/residence, or that he booked a hotel without anyone being able to tell. I have gone to places like that myself just because I enjoy the scenery--without any intention of hooking up. Unless there's evidence he brought some guy clandestinely into the embassy compound, or that he hooked up with someone under the age of consent (16 in Belgium), the press needs to shut up about this. As for the Benghazi consul, Christopher Stephens, I heard on TV (NBC if I recall correctly) that he was openly gay.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-hillary-clinton-send-gay-ambassador-to-libya-as-intentional-provocation

 

According to leading Arab media outlets, the murder of US Ambassador Christopher Stevens was even more horrible than what was reported in on the US media. The Arab media reports that Stevens was beaten, gang raped, killed, and then his body was publicly displayed in a manner similar to Gaddafi.

 

A Libyan doctor who examined the body said Stevens had severe internal injuries and died of "severe asphyxia."

[BaronArtz]

You make great points, Unicorn. I totally agree. In the case of ambassador Gutman, the only fact seems to be that he went for a walk in a park near his home at night. That's it. While the European press was mostly neutral - non committal about it, the US press (CNN , NY Post and others) throw 'male prostitution' and 'minors' in the mix. It is just totally unfair to the guy.

[+ Gar1eth]

Off the subject but it was mentioned- I'm surprised adultery isn't good enough grounds for a divorce in Belgium. I mean it's one thing if there is adultery- the other partner knows and is ok with it. But if one partner doesn't want to be married to someone committing adultery they shouldn't have to stay in the union.

 

Gman

[+ Gar1eth]

I speak French. Basically, the article says that there is no evidence anyone saw him do anything, just that he's been seen going alone at night in the Parc de Bruxelles, known for gay hook-ups, at night. The "evidence" seems to be "ces informations provient de ragots de bureaux," or office gossip. He has had marital problems. It would be difficult for me to imagine that he brought in a guy to the embassy compound/residence, or that he booked a hotel without anyone being able to tell. I have gone to places like that myself just because I enjoy the scenery--without any intention of hooking up. Unless there's evidence he brought some guy clandestinely into the embassy compound, or that he hooked up with someone under the age of consent (16 in Belgium), the press needs to shut up about this. As for the Benghazi consul, Christopher Stephens, I heard on TV (NBC if I recall correctly) that he was openly gay.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-hillary-clinton-send-gay-ambassador-to-libya-as-intentional-provocation

 

According to leading Arab media outlets, the murder of US Ambassador Christopher Stevens was even more horrible than what was reported in on the US media. The Arab media reports that Stevens was beaten, gang raped, killed, and then his body was publicly displayed in a manner similar to Gaddafi.

 

A Libyan doctor who examined the body said Stevens had severe internal injuries and died of "severe asphyxia."

 

I had never read this- and I don't watch a lot of TV due to my current circumstances. I wonder how accurate in this case the Arab press is. And if this is true, I wonder if the abuse to Ambassador Stevens occurred because he was gay. It seems unlikely that he would have been known as being openly gay in Libya as it is a Moslem country. I doubt they would really want to accept an openly gay- known to them as being gay individual as an Ambassador. And I wouldn't think Washington would send someone who was openly gay to be the ambassador of a Moslem country if they could help it. On the other hand, Libya is one of those places where they need a real ambassador and not just a rich guy who donated a lot of money to the Party or to Obama's campaign. And fluent Arab speakers with all the other qualifications needed may not be thick on the ground at the state department.

 

Gman

[bigvalboy]

On the other hand, Libya is one of those places where they need a real ambassador and not just a rich guy who donated a lot of money to the Party or to Obama's campaign. And fluent Arab speakers with all the other qualifications needed may not be thick on the ground at the state department.

 

That is actually a gross over simplification of the ambassadors that are serving over seas. There have been/and currently are a European ambassador in my family. For discretionary reasons I will not elaborate, suffice it to say that he is very high ranking, and his post was given on the bases of the knowledge of the interworking's of the political and business environment, political connections, and his ability to mediate with business and world leaders within the European political arena.

 

Did he vote for Obama, of course he did, but his political and business connections on the European front is what secured his post...The crash of the Euro was disastrous for us, and had a profound effect on slowing our economy. It was important that he had a grasp of how all of this effected our economy stateside.

[Steven_Draker]

Right. There is no reason for the papers to be shy about it, there is nothing illegal about hiring prostitutes in Belgium, nor would it be illegal in most European countries I think. Nor is it illegal for gay men to meet in a park.

 

For those of you who are interested, the literal translation of that quote is: "a park that has a reputation as a meeting place at night for homosexuals". It does not state that the park is a place to meet with prostitutes.

 

Now you could say: but he is married. While adultery - if that is what happened - is technically speaking a crime in Belgium, it is very rarely prosecuted. And civil courts will not consider 'adultery' as a basis to grant a divorce.

 

Therefore, the chance that prosecutors or courts in Belgium will intervene in this matter is nil.

 

The local media here says that this affair was involving underage escorts/prostitutes. There's an investigation initiated by the State Department in the USA. There are no charges in Belgium.

[+ Gar1eth]

That is actually a gross over simplification of the ambassadors that are serving over seas. There have been/and currently are a European ambassador in my family. For discretionary reasons I will not elaborate, suffice it to say that he is very high ranking, and his post was given on the bases of the knowledge of the interworking's of the political and business environment, political connections, and his ability to mediate with business and world leaders within the European political arena.

 

Did he vote for Obama, of course he did, but his political and business connections on the European front is what secured his post...The crash of the Euro was disastrous for us, and had a profound effect on slowing our economy. It was important that he had a grasp of how all of this effected our economy stateside.

 

 

 

I think you have misinterpreted my post or chosen possibly to take my remarks in the most personal way because of your family member. It's an historical fact that ambassadorships have often been sinecures for well-healed donors of whichever party is in power at the moment. But even when that's true, usually more sensitive postings have gone to people with the type of knowledge needed. The Middle East is usually one of those places, and Europe at least in the past and depending on the country in question is less so. Possibly in today's more complex and complicated world this isnt as common as it used to be. But I didn't specify which individual ambassadors were mainly appointed for reason of their large donations. While I'd prefer not to name names- I think this one might be fairly safe in classifying as more of a political appointee than a person well versed in international relations--William McCormick- the former Ambassador to New Zealand and Samoa. But I am quite willing to change my opinion about Ambassador McCormick if someone with more knowledge of international affairs- and it wouldn't take a lot-tells me differently.

 

Gman

[Frequentflier]

That is actually a gross over simplification of the ambassadors that are serving over seas. There have been/and currently are a European ambassador in my family. For discretionary reasons I will not elaborate, suffice it to say that he is very high ranking, and his post was given on the bases of the knowledge of the interworking's of the political and business environment, political connections, and his ability to mediate with business and world leaders within the European political arena.

 

Did he vote for Obama, of course he did, but his political and business connections on the European front is what secured his post...The crash of the Euro was disastrous for us, and had a profound effect on slowing our economy. It was important that he had a grasp of how all of this effected our economy stateside.

 

While everyone has different strengths, expertise and connections that can be useful to the administration/country is it not fair to say that being an ambassador is a big deal regardless of to which country? Sure, they have political connections but a lot of good jobs (even outside of government) are gained through someones network of connections and a President (as well as his team) want someone they know will be loyal to the current administration. These people still need to be chosen by the President, consented to by the Senate, likely background checked significantly and so not one of them can be a slouch (intelligence, social grace and interpersonal capabilities need to be outstanding). I recently read a biography about Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, which was quite good. They have handlers in the administration that are quite involved in their activities (including speeches and appearances), provide valuable information and insight through their communication pipeline upwards and make interacting with leaders in other countries more effective because they are in place. Doesn't appear though that they have the personal cell phone number of the President in their phones; they (like most organizations) follow a protocol. In fact I think when they resign they actually submit their resignation to the Secretary of State. In summary an ambassadorship is a big deal and an important position (but they don't have launch codes) :)

[bigvalboy]

While everyone has different strengths, expertise and connections that can be useful to the administration/country is it not fair to say that being an ambassador is a big deal regardless of to which country? Sure, they have political connections but a lot of good jobs (even outside of government) are gained through someones network of connections and a President (as well as his team) want someone they know will be loyal to the current administration. These people still need to be chosen by the President, consented to by the Senate, likely background checked significantly and so not one of them can be a slouch (intelligence, social grace and interpersonal capabilities need to be outstanding). I recently read a biography about Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, which was quite good. They have handlers in the administration that are quite involved in their activities (including speeches and appearances), provide valuable information and insight through their communication pipeline upwards and make interacting with leaders in other countries more effective because they are in place. Doesn't appear though that they have the personal cell phone number of the President in their phones; they (like most organizations) follow a protocol. In fact I think when they resign they actually submit their resignation to the Secretary of State. In summary an ambassadorship is a big deal and an important position (but they don't have launch codes) :)

 

Excellent summary.....And no, he doesn't have launch codes..lol

[bigvalboy]

I think you have misinterpreted my post or chosen possibly to take my remarks in the most personal way because of your family member. It's an historical fact that ambassadorships have often been sinecures for well-healed donors of whichever party is in power at the moment. But even when that's true, usually more sensitive postings have gone to people with the type of knowledge needed. The Middle East is usually one of those places, and Europe at least in the past and depending on the country in question is less so. Possibly in today's more complex and complicated world this isnt as common as it used to be. But I didn't specify which individual ambassadors were mainly appointed for reason of their large donations. While I'd prefer not to name names- I think this one might be fairly safe in classifying as more of a political appointee than a person well versed in international relations--William McCormick- the former Ambassador to New Zealand and Samoa. But I am quite willing to change my opinion about Ambassador McCormick if someone with more knowledge of international affairs- and it wouldn't take a lot-tells me differently.

 

Gman

 

No worries, I do not take that sort of stuff personal at all, as I am well aware of how the world historically views ambassadorships, so you certainly have a right to your opinion, but in this particular case however, I respectfully disagree, and not because it is regarding family. It is because of personal knowledge that I have been privy to over a period of many years.

[COBRA]

The Parc Royal is very well known for homosexual activities. Prostitution is legal, pimping is not. The ambassador is married.....I was too and had children, divorced for 31 years and happy in my totally open gay life. This being said ....I never cruised the park.....I prefer a bed :-)

[Steven_Draker]

Le Parc Royal is highly overrated. You're better spend your time elsewhere (in my opinion).

[Irtwo]

Looks like the Belgium ambassador is getting replaced.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/obama-donors-career-diplomats-get-ambassadorship-nods/2013/06/21/9a759a62-dab1-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_blog.html

[Jscott]

Looks like the Belgium ambassador is getting replaced.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/obama-donors-career-diplomats-get-ambassadorship-nods/2013/06/21/9a759a62-dab1-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_blog.html

 

Interesting that the article mentions lobbying for openly gay ambassadorship appointments... as opposed to closeted?