NBC cancels The New Normal

[bostonman]

They weren't helped by the lead-in from that execrable "Betty White's Off Their Rockers".

 

God bless Betty White, but yes...I saw the preview of this show when it aired after her birthday party special last year, and was really scratching my head.

 

I haven't watched her in "Hot In Cleveland" (on principle, I've avoided all of TV Land's new shows, as I miss their former dedication to the older classics, and wish they hadn't sold out) but I know it's been successful. Why she found the need to do this other show I'll never know. I think she deserves much better.

 

As for Smash - yes, I'm sure PART of the blame definitely falls with Rebeck (which is a shame, because I think she's a decent playwright). But I don't doubt there were loads of problems all around.

 

I also have developed a major distrust of producers Zadan and Meron - I really don't like most of what they've done in terms of their TV musical adaptations, etc. When I was a teen, first reading Zadan's wonderful Sondheim & Co. (the first book to delve into Sondheim's musicals) I thought he was god. And though many people disagree, I loved the TV version of Gypsy with Bette Midler (the first in the series of their new TV musical productions). But then, something really started to go wrong. I liked their big-screen films of Chicago and Hairspray (except for the awful miscasting of John Travolta as Edna), but generally when I see "Zadan and Meron" listed on a project, I cringe. (Including this year's Academy Awards - ugh!) In that sense, I guess Smash didn't disappoint, lol.

[operalover21]

Nice article, but he conveniently ignores every article and every interview with everyone ever involved. And he does admit up front he's diagnosing from the outside.

 

There appear to be two schools of thought among those actually involved with the show about why this show failed : 1) Theresa Rebeck was screwed (an opinion held only by Theresa Rebeck), and 2) Theresa Rebeck screwed the pooch.

 

I'm sure producer meddling, as he said, had something to do with the show's failings (Spielberg is personally responsible for casting Katherine McPhee, for example) but when you have a show runner who refuses to work with producers, writers, directors, and cast, you have a recipe for disaster. There are stories that everyone in a position of any authority was afraid to meet with her because it would end in a shouting match.

 

The show was so far gone by the end of the first season it couldn't be saved, so I can't lay much blame at the feet of the second season crew. There wasn't much left to rescue. They weren't helped by the lead-in from that execrable "Betty White's Off Their Rockers".

 

We were all surprised when SMASH was renewed in the first place. I'm just glad the second season will get a proper finale. Although, in typical NBC "let's make sure it's good and screwed" fashion it will air on a *Sunday* night, the night before Memorial Day.

 

Of course, that ignores the fact that Theresa Rebeck had absolutely nothing to do with Season 2 which was VASTLY worse than Season 1 which, at least, was promising.

 

A major problem was that even though she had a nice voice Katherine McPhee had all the personality of overcooked eggplant.

 

God Bless Betty White but, egads, that show is awful.

 

I don't think very many people were surprised much by the renewal of Smash last season as it had powerful backing from the head of NBC who LOVED the show.

[operalover21]

God bless Betty White, but yes...I saw the preview of this show when it aired after her birthday party special last year, and was really scratching my head.

 

I haven't watched her in "Hot In Cleveland" (on principle, I've avoided all of TV Land's new shows, as I miss their former dedication to the older classics, and wish they hadn't sold out) but I know it's been successful. Why she found the need to do this other show I'll never know. I think she deserves much better.

 

As for Smash - yes, I'm sure PART of the blame definitely falls with Rebeck (which is a shame, because I think she's a decent playwright). But I don't doubt there were loads of problems all around.

 

I also have developed a major distrust of producers Zadan and Meron - I really don't like most of what they've done in terms of their TV musical adaptations, etc. When I was a teen, first reading Zadan's wonderful Sondheim & Co. (the first book to delve into Sondheim's musicals) I thought he was god. And though many people disagree, I loved the TV version of Gypsy with Bette Midler (the first in the series of their new TV musical productions). But then, something really started to go wrong. I liked their big-screen films of Chicago and Hairspray (except for the awful miscasting of John Travolta as Edna), but generally when I see "Zadan and Meron" listed on a project, I cringe. (Including this year's Academy Awards - ugh!) In that sense, I guess Smash didn't disappoint, lol.

 

They're the same idiots responsible for this years execrable Oscars. And I don't know a single person who loves the theater who thought their version of CHICAGO was anything other than a botched abortion.

[MrBigTL]

I watched the program but more out of a sense of obligation than for any real liking of the show.

[bostonman]

They're the same idiots responsible for this years execrable Oscars. And I don't know a single person who loves the theater who thought their version of CHICAGO was anything other than a botched abortion.

 

Yes, I had mentioned the Oscars in my post.

 

In terms of the Chicago film, I have similar feelings as I do to the film of Sweeney Todd - apart from huge reservations of the changes that were made (and in the case of Sweeney, the voices not being a match for the lushness of the huge orchestral sound), I thought both films worked as films. I certainly don't feel that the Chicago film is any match for the stage musical. (Same goes for Sweeney. Nor was the John Doyle stage production of Sweeney a good representation of the show - for me it was nothing but a glorified concert with no acting to speak of, mainly because everyone was too busy playing instruments to interact.)

 

All of the post-Gypsy Zadan/Meron TV musicals have missed the mark, some more than others. The only one of those that I think works on its own terms in the Annie, and even there I'm sad that they cut the political edge out of the piece, just as the original movie did (the part that most people don't even know is there, until they've seen a well-directed production of the stage musical). But even then, some of the casting is questionable. The worst are probably the Music Man with an egregiously cast Matthew Broderick, and the Once Upon A Mattress which drained every last bit of comedy from the piece (despite the participation of the show's original star, Carol Burnett, now playing the Queen - and even SHE isn't funny). The others haven't been much better, to say the least.

 

But the Chicago I was ok with. So sue me.

[operalover21]

Yes, I had mentioned the Oscars in my post.

 

In terms of the Chicago film, I have similar feelings as I do to the film of Sweeney Todd - apart from huge reservations of the changes that were made (and in the case of Sweeney, the voices not being a match for the lushness of the huge orchestral sound), I thought both films worked as films. I certainly don't feel that the Chicago film is any match for the stage musical. (Same goes for Sweeney. Nor was the John Doyle stage production of Sweeney a good representation of the show - for me it was nothing but a glorified concert with no acting to speak of, mainly because everyone was too busy playing instruments to interact.)

 

All of the post-Gypsy Zadan/Meron TV musicals have missed the mark, some more than others. The only one of those that I think works on its own terms in the Annie, and even there I'm sad that they cut the political edge out of the piece, just as the original movie did (the part that most people don't even know is there, until they've seen a well-directed production of the stage musical). But even then, some of the casting is questionable. The worst are probably the Music Man with an egregiously cast Matthew Broderick, and the Once Upon A Mattress which drained every last bit of comedy from the piece (despite the participation of the show's original star, Carol Burnett, now playing the Queen - and even SHE isn't funny). The others haven't been much better, to say the least.

 

But the Chicago I was ok with. So sue me.

 

We found at least one thing to agree upon. I really didn't like the John Doyle Sweeney Todd. I know everyone loved it but that score is so amazing (which is why it can work with a full orchestra in an opera house) and the paring down that score just ruined it for me. Plus Patti Lupone was awful.

 

I liked the "atmosphere" of Burton's Sweeney Todd as it capture that so well but I missed having leads who could sing the roles. That killed it for me. CHICAGO, though, was far worse. It was filmed like it was a music video with 3 million video cuts and not a single person in the cast who can sing or dance (and don't mention Catherine Zeta Jones to me. That may pass for singing in Wales but not anywhere else). It is the WORST Best Picture Oscar winner of my lifetime and that includes A Beautiful Mind, Slumdog Millionaire and Dances with Wolves.

 

I don't really think anyone goes to Annie for "political edge" which is why it is mostly left out or ignored. It's dated, boring, and no one cares.

[+ WilliamM]

 

And though many people disagree, I loved the TV version of Gypsy with Bette Midler (the first in the series of their new TV musical productions). But then, something really started to go wrong. I liked their big-screen films of Chicago and Hairspray (except for the awful miscasting of John Travolta as Edna), but generally when I see "Zadan and Meron" listed on a project, I cringe. (Including this year's Academy Awards - ugh!) In that sense, I guess Smash didn't disappoint, lol.

 

I believe many. many people would disagree with you about Bette Midler's "Gypsy." Around the time "Gypsy" was shown on TV, I saw Better Midler sing many of the songs from "Gypsy" at a charity tribute to Ethel Merman. I did not enjoy the TV "Gypsy," or Midler's live performance. One would think she was exactly right for the lead role, but Midler was not IMHO.

If I remember correctly I liked her acting much better than her singing.

[operalover21]

I believe many. many people would disagree with you about Bette Midler's "Gypsy." Around the time "Gypsy" was shown on TV, I saw Better Midler sing many of the songs from "Gypsy" at a charity tribute to Ethel Merman. I did not enjoy the TV "Gypsy," or Midler's live performance. One would think she was exactly right for the lead role, but Midler was not IMHO.

If I remember correctly I liked her acting much better than her singing.

 

Bette Midler is really only good when she's just being Bette Midler. Or in those outlandish 1980ish comedies she did. Her Rose's Turn really left me cold.

[bostonman]

We found at least one thing to agree upon. I really didn't like the John Doyle Sweeney Todd. I know everyone loved it but that score is so amazing (which is why it can work with a full orchestra in an opera house) and the paring down that score just ruined it for me. Plus Patti Lupone was awful.

 

I liked the "atmosphere" of Burton's Sweeney Todd as it capture that so well but I missed having leads who could sing the roles. That killed it for me. CHICAGO, though, was far worse. It was filmed like it was a music video with 3 million video cuts and not a single person in the cast who can sing or dance (and don't mention Catherine Zeta Jones to me. That may pass for singing in Wales but not anywhere else). It is the WORST Best Picture Oscar winner of my lifetime and that includes A Beautiful Mind, Slumdog Millionaire and Dances with Wolves.

 

I don't really think anyone goes to Annie for "political edge" which is why it is mostly left out or ignored. It's dated, boring, and no one cares.

 

In terms of the Doyle Sweeney, my issue is that I just don't like Doyle's work in general. Anyone who can sap all of the drama out of intense works like Peter Grimes (Met) or Mahagonny (LA Opera) let alone the Sondheim pieces, etc - I just don't get it. I agree about the vocal issues with Depp and Bonham Carter (among others) in the Sweeney film - to be honest, I loved everything else about what they did with the roles, but to have that huge orchestra on the soundtrack accompanying those very small voices just didn't make sense.

 

In terms of Annie, I don't think it's "dated" (whatever that really means, lol) - but i have always found it intriguing that "Tomorrow" sticks out, musically, like a sore thumb - most of the score is, for me, deft 1920/30's pastiche writing (one can argue that "A Hard Knock Life" feels a bit less so), but "Tomorrow" is, in its scoring, very much a 1970's pop song. It's the only song in the show that I wish weren't there, although the payoff in Act II with Roosevelt and the cabinet singing it can be a wonderful comic turn with the right actors. But both films have cut the songs that really help land the show in the Depression era, such as "We'd Like To Thank You, Herbert Hoover," which gives the show an adult irony that people just don't realize is in the material. I think a lot of people don't like the show because they think it's all about obnoxious little girls belting their heads off, lol. But it's really NOT about that. But you know what - if you don't like it and you're going to tell me that Strouse is also a 2nd rate composer, save it. I don't care.

[bostonman]

I believe many. many people would disagree with you about Bette Midler's "Gypsy." Around the time "Gypsy" was shown on TV, I saw Better Midler sing many of the songs from "Gypsy" at a charity tribute to Ethel Merman. I did not enjoy the TV "Gypsy," or Midler's live performance. One would think she was exactly right for the lead role, but Midler was not IMHO.

If I remember correctly I liked her acting much better than her singing.

 

Bette Midler is really only good when she's just being Bette Midler. Or in those outlandish 1980ish comedies she did. Her Rose's Turn really left me cold.

 

In terms of the TV film itself, I tend to feel I liked a lot of elements about it - the fact that they really, really stuck to the original script and score (something they haven't done since with any of the TV adaptations), the look of it, most of the casting, etc...I wasn't entirely sold on Midler either, even though I did tend to like her more than a lot of people did. But it was the total package of the film that I liked - for me it's not *just* about the Madame Rose.

[+ WilliamM]

In terms of the TV film itself' date=' I tend to feel I liked a lot of elements about it - the fact that they really, really stuck to the original script and score (something they haven't done since with any of the TV adaptations), the look of it, most of the casting, etc...I wasn't entirely sold on Midler either, even though I did tend to like her more than a lot of people did. But it was the total package of the film that I liked - for me it's not *just* about the Madame Rose.[/quote']

 

You make some excellent points. It was difficult to concentrate for long on anyone but Ethel Merman and Angela Lansbury in the original "Gypsy" and the first revival. Since then, I seems to be always focusing on the other aspects of "Gypsy," starting with Tyne Daly and continuing with Bernadette Peters and Patti LuPone. To be fair to Daly, Peters and LuPone (and Midler), I have seen "Gypsy" too often. And I tend to over praise all shows I saw as a young person. I was 16/17-years old when I saw the original "Gypsy" twice.

[operalover21]

In terms of the Doyle Sweeney, my issue is that I just don't like Doyle's work in general. Anyone who can sap all of the drama out of intense works like Peter Grimes (Met) or Mahagonny (LA Opera) let alone the Sondheim pieces, etc - I just don't get it. I agree about the vocal issues with Depp and Bonham Carter (among others) in the Sweeney film - to be honest, I loved everything else about what they did with the roles, but to have that huge orchestra on the soundtrack accompanying those very small voices just didn't make sense.

 

In terms of Annie, I don't think it's "dated" (whatever that really means, lol) - but i have always found it intriguing that "Tomorrow" sticks out, musically, like a sore thumb - most of the score is, for me, deft 1920/30's pastiche writing (one can argue that "A Hard Knock Life" feels a bit less so), but "Tomorrow" is, in its scoring, very much a 1970's pop song. It's the only song in the show that I wish weren't there, although the payoff in Act II with Roosevelt and the cabinet singing it can be a wonderful comic turn with the right actors. But both films have cut the songs that really help land the show in the Depression era, such as "We'd Like To Thank You, Herbert Hoover," which gives the show an adult irony that people just don't realize is in the material. I think a lot of people don't like the show because they think it's all about obnoxious little girls belting their heads off, lol. But it's really NOT about that. But you know what - if you don't like it and you're going to tell me that Strouse is also a 2nd rate composer, save it. I don't care.

 

From both a purely acting perspective and production perspective, I really loved Burton's film of SWEENEY TODD but the musical aspects killed it for me. As for Doyle, oddly I really liked his PETER GRIMES at the MET because, for me, his minimalist approach worked there.

 

I don't think ANNIE is dated. I think the political aspects of it are dated, old hate, dull, boring, out of date so they're ignored. It's a very good score.

 

As for Strouse, he hasn't really written all that much that has lasted except for ANNIE. As for second rate ... if Porter, Rodgers, Gershwin, Berlin, Kern, Sondheim, Loesser are "first rate" then what are people like Strouse and Schwartz? Surely, you wouldn't argue that people like that are in that league?

[operalover21]

You make some excellent points. It was difficult to concentrate for long on anyone but Ethel Merman and Angela Lansbury in the original "Gypsy" and the first revival. Since then, I seems to be always focusing on the other aspects of "Gypsy," starting with Tyne Daly and continuing with Bernadette Peters and Patti LuPone. To be fair to Daly, Peters and LuPone (and Midler), I have seen "Gypsy" too often. And I tend to over praise all shows I saw as a young person. I was 16/17-years old when I saw the original "Gypsy" twice.

 

I remember seeing Daly after all the critics went stark raving mad over her performance and sitting there in the theater dumbfounded. I didn't get it at all. It was all very one note and she couldn't sing a note in tune if her life depended on it. Peters -- who I really like -- just never connected to the role and just felt so precious. Lupone, well, I've never liked her rather crude brassy style with pitch and accents all over the place ... you're right ... it begins and ends with Merman and Lansbury.

[bostonman]

As for Strouse, he hasn't really written all that much that has lasted except for ANNIE. As for second rate ... if Porter, Rodgers, Gershwin, Berlin, Kern, Sondheim, Loesser are "first rate" then what are people like Strouse and Schwartz? Surely, you wouldn't argue that people like that are in that league?

 

As for Strouse, don't forget Bye, Bye, Birdie - certainly "Put On A Happy Face" is a standard, among others.

 

Sondheim is the only composer in your list that's contemporary at all - who do you consider to be the top writers in the recent past or the present? (I would also add Herman and Arlen to your original list, among others).

 

I thought the Met Peter Grimes looked like "Hee Haw" meets the Borough.

[+ WilliamM]

 

Sondheim is the only composer in your list that's contemporary at all - who do you consider to be the top writers in the recent past or the present? (I would also add Herman and Arlen to your original list, among others).

 

 

I agree completely with your mention of Arlen, and there are likely others who have been left out by accident. Twenty years ago, I would have included Herman. But, I have attended too many Pops-like concerts in recent years that concentrate on Jerry Herman. I am always disappointed. To me 90 minutes of Herman just does not thrill me like ninety minutes of the others who have been mentioned. He's written many wonderful song; to me, he just barely misses be included in the "great" category.

[operalover21]

As for Strouse, don't forget Bye, Bye, Birdie - certainly "Put On A Happy Face" is a standard, among others.

 

Sondheim is the only composer in your list that's contemporary at all - who do you consider to be the top writers in the recent past or the present? (I would also add Herman and Arlen to your original list, among others).

 

I thought the Met Peter Grimes looked like "Hee Haw" meets the Borough.

 

I don't get the Hee Haw reference at all, I'm afraid.

 

Oh, there are literally dozens of names I could have mentioned I just picked some random "first rate" composers. I wouldn't include Arlen only because he didn't write all that much for the theater the way the others did. Herman definitely. I think there are very few contemporary theater composers since Sondheim that deserve to be included in that list. I don't know why that is. I suppose some would include Webber but I find too much of his stuff to be derivative. Kander and Ebb certainly.

 

But who else? All of the musicals written today have fairly forgettable and non-memorable scores. I'm not being nostalgic. Heck, I wish some first rate composers would come along. I loved Guettel's Light in the Piazza but there's been nothing of worth since. Not like the days of Rodgers are Hart putting out a first rate quality show year after year for 20 some odd years.

 

Sondheim once seemed like he was going to usher in a whole new breed of composer and another golden age. Instead, the great Broadway musical tradition seems to have ended with him instead.

 

Musicals today seem mostly about the book and almost never about the score (think The Producers, Book of Mormon, Billy Elliott, etc.) or are pastiches of other work (Mamma Mia).

[operalover21]

I agree completely with your mention of Arlen, and there are likely others who have been left out by accident. Twenty years ago, I would have included Herman. But, I have attended too many Pops-like concerts in recent years that concentrate on Jerry Herman. I am always disappointed. To me 90 minutes of Herman just does not thrill me like ninety minutes of the others who have been mentioned. He's written many wonderful song; to me, he just barely misses be included in the "great" category.

 

 

But that's a concert not a Broadway show. I thought we were talking about seeing shows with scores. In that case, Herman would be included on my list not Arlen who was a great songwriter but not a great writer for theater.

 

Oh, and on the subject of Arlen I always though that Strouse's Put On a Happy Face was a complete rip off of Arlen's Get Happy.

[bostonman]

Don't forget that a number of Arlen standards have come from his Broadway shows - "Come Rain Or Come Shine" would certainly be the to[p of that list. And let's also not forget The Wizard Of Oz, which may not have been written for the stage, but plays like a musical of its era, and of course has several stage incarnations.

 

We haven't actually mentioned Styne by name, but certainly Gypsy, Bells Are Ringing and Funny Girl are solid, essential scores, among others.

 

Cy Coleman - for my money, one of the most versatile writers of his generation.

 

As part of that earlier, classic age, certainly Weill, Bernstein, Lerner and Loewe, and Bock and Harnick.

 

Towards the end of the last century and beyond - in addition to the aforementioned Kander and Ebb, I'd add Finn, Carnelia, Menken, Aherns and Flaherty, Yeston...

 

Current composers - Jason Robert Brown (I don't like all of his stuff but I recognize his talent), Andrew Lippa (except for the rape he perpetrated on the score of Charlie Brown, and no I am not using that word frivolously), Michael John LaChiusa, Adam Guettel (Piazza is outstanding, but Floyd Collins is also pretty remarkable), David Yazbek (I think both The Full Monty and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels are marvelous scores)...

 

And some unsung heroes - look into them if you don't know them, you will be pleasantly surprised at their skills and also their ability to write melodic, intelligent and often funny songs in a number of styles - Doug Cohen (his No Way To Treat A Lady is phenomenal, among other scores), Peter Mills (Illyria, et al), John Bucchino, and a name I'm sure no one will know, but who undoubtedly will gain recognition - Sam Willmott, a NYC-based composer who won this year's Fred Ebb award. (I recently did the area premiere of his Standardized Testing, which was a joy to work on.)

 

Every generation has proclaimed the musical is dead. And yet it keeps living on. Don't give up on it yet.

[+ WilliamM]

Julie Styne

 

We haven't actually mentioned Styne by name' date=' but certainly [i']Gypsy[/i], Bells Are Ringing and Funny Girl are solid, essential scores, among others.

 

I agree with much of what you wrote here. I wonder if Styne's most often performed musical may actually be "Peter Pan." I know that Styne and Comden & Green only contributed 'Never Never Land,' 'Distant Melody' and the now seldom heard 'Oh, My Mysterious Lady' to the score. But, 'Never Never Land' is the most well-known song from "Peter Pan." In fact, somwhere tonight, Cathy Rigby likely sang the song a few hours ago.

 

I could go on about the wonder that was Jule Styne, but the dozens of songs he wrote for Sinatra and others & his many, many Broadway musicals would take up a huge amount of space. Amazing man.

[bostonman]

I agree with much of what you wrote here. I wonder if Styne's most often performed musical may actually be "Peter Pan." I know that Styne and Comden & Green only contributed 'Never Never Land,' 'Distant Melody' and the now seldom heard 'Oh, My Mysterious Lady' to the score.

 

More than that, actually - also "Wendy", "Captain Hook's Waltz" and "Ugg-A-Wugg." "Mysterious Lady" was indeed written as a specialty number for Mary Martin to show off her high range, though I believe every production I've personally done of the show (5 or 6 - I've lost count, lol) has included it. Including one I did a few seasons ago, with a male (professional college-age actor) in the role of Peter, with a killer falsetto - he pulled it off quite well.

 

BTW - as a pianist, one of the joys of getting to play that score is that the pianist gets to be the "voice" of Tinkerbell (traditionally played on a celeste) - I have always had so much fun getting to do that! ;-)

 

One of my personal favorite Styne/Comden/Green songs is "If You Hadn't But You Did," first sung by Delores Gray in the revue Two On The Aisle, though the first time I ever heard the song it was sung by Betty Comden herself, as part of A Party With Comden And Green. One of the great patter songs, to be sure.

[operalover21]

Don't forget that a number of Arlen standards have come from his Broadway shows - "Come Rain Or Come Shine" would certainly be the to[p of that list. And let's also not forget The Wizard Of Oz, which may not have been written for the stage, but plays like a musical of its era, and of course has several stage incarnations.

 

We haven't actually mentioned Styne by name, but certainly Gypsy, Bells Are Ringing and Funny Girl are solid, essential scores, among others.

 

Cy Coleman - for my money, one of the most versatile writers of his generation.

 

As part of that earlier, classic age, certainly Weill, Bernstein, Lerner and Loewe, and Bock and Harnick.

 

Towards the end of the last century and beyond - in addition to the aforementioned Kander and Ebb, I'd add Finn, Carnelia, Menken, Aherns and Flaherty, Yeston...

 

Current composers - Jason Robert Brown (I don't like all of his stuff but I recognize his talent), Andrew Lippa (except for the rape he perpetrated on the score of Charlie Brown, and no I am not using that word frivolously), Michael John LaChiusa, Adam Guettel (Piazza is outstanding, but Floyd Collins is also pretty remarkable), David Yazbek (I think both The Full Monty and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels are marvelous scores)...

 

And some unsung heroes - look into them if you don't know them, you will be pleasantly surprised at their skills and also their ability to write melodic, intelligent and often funny songs in a number of styles - Doug Cohen (his No Way To Treat A Lady is phenomenal, among other scores), Peter Mills (Illyria, et al), John Bucchino, and a name I'm sure no one will know, but who undoubtedly will gain recognition - Sam Willmott, a NYC-based composer who won this year's Fred Ebb award. (I recently did the area premiere of his Standardized Testing, which was a joy to work on.)

 

Every generation has proclaimed the musical is dead. And yet it keeps living on. Don't give up on it yet.

 

I agree about Cy Coleman but can't agree on the others you mention including Menken who hasn't written a single memorable theater score. He's a film composer. Some of the people you mention are decent enough but not a single one is ever likely to be mentioned in the same breath as the great theater composers of the 20s through the 50s.

 

The Broadway musical is dead. What lives on is the spectacle, fueled by the book, with no memorable scores in sight.

[operalover21]

I agree with much of what you wrote here. I wonder if Styne's most often performed musical may actually be "Peter Pan." I know that Styne and Comden & Green only contributed 'Never Never Land,' 'Distant Melody' and the now seldom heard 'Oh, My Mysterious Lady' to the score. But, 'Never Never Land' is the most well-known song from "Peter Pan." In fact, somwhere tonight, Cathy Rigby likely sang the song a few hours ago.

 

I could go on about the wonder that was Jule Styne, but the dozens of songs he wrote for Sinatra and others & his many, many Broadway musicals would take up a huge amount of space. Amazing man.

 

 

Styne was wonderful, he was almost the last of that generation.

[bostonman]

...including Menken who hasn't written a single memorable theater score. He's a film composer.

 

Little Shop Of Horrors is full of incredibly memorable songs. I think you need to start taking ginkgo, and using your ears more.

 

As a musician, I work with these supposedly "unmemorable" songs all the time, and have no problem remembering every note, every chord change, every lyric. I don't know why you can't. I feel sorry that you're so closed-minded about music. And since we're never going to agree on this, I'm not engaging in this conversation with you any more. So whatever you have for a snarky comeback, save it for yourself. Good night.

[+ WilliamM]

Towards the end of the last century and beyond - in addition to the aforementioned Kander and Ebb, I'd add Finn, Carnelia, Menken, Aherns and Flaherty, Yeston...

 

Current composers - Jason Robert Brown (I don't like all of his stuff but I recognize his talent), Andrew Lippa (except for the rape he perpetrated on the score of Charlie Brown, and no I am not using that word frivolously), Michael John LaChiusa, Adam Guettel (Piazza is outstanding, but Floyd Collins is also pretty remarkable), David Yazbek (I think both The Full Monty and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels are marvelous scores)...

 

And some unsung heroes - look into them if you don't know them, you will be pleasantly surprised at their skills and also their ability to write melodic, intelligent and often funny songs in a number of styles - Doug Cohen (his No Way To Treat A Lady is phenomenal, among other scores), Peter Mills (Illyria, et al), John Bucchino, and a name I'm sure no one will know, but who undoubtedly will gain recognition - Sam Willmott, a NYC-based composer who won this year's Fred Ebb award. (I recently did the area premiere of his Standardized Testing, which was a joy to work on.)

 

Every generation has proclaimed the musical is dead. And yet it keeps living on. Don't give up on it yet.

 

There is much merit in your comments. Composers now have much less chance to see their works produced on Broadway.

 

Styne and Coleman wrote the music for many shows that failed, but almost always had one or two songs have lived on.

Even shows that only lasted a few months, like "Subways are for Sleeping" and "Wildcat" have delight original cast albums.

 

It's much more difficult today. High ticket prices, theaters tied up for decades with the same musicals ("Phantom of The Opera" is one of several examples). Also Styne and Coleman wrote in the era where Broadway shows still produced hit songs. Now "Small World" from "Gypsy" is heard as just one more good song for Merman to sing, but Johnny Mathis made "Small World" a big hit record in 1959.

 

Please do not get frustrated. Message board are always difficult at times, and you have something important to say.

[bostonman]

Also Styne and Coleman wrote in the era where Broadway shows still produced hit songs.

 

Indeed. According to Sondheim, Styne was originally upset at the specificity of Sondheim's lyrics for "Small World" - at the line "I'm a woman with children" Styne supposedly complained, "well, that means no man can sing the song." The comment seems ridiculous even for the time (did Rodgers and Hammerstein write songs like "I Cain't Say No" or "I Enjoy Being A Girl" with the mentality that they could be sung by either gender? lol), but still it shows that many composers were thinking more about the hit factor than the purpose of the song in the dramatic situation.