How does a guy really know if he is gay, seriously?

[Guest tjsd65]

I hear what you are saying here loud and clear. For so long I have felt as if I have not had to identify myself by whom I prefer to have sex with. I have exclusively preferred men over women sexually all of my life, I can remember as far back as 22 years ago. My first realy experience was at 24 and have been hiring escorts since 28, 10 yaers. Always male. But I have been growing weary over the past few years of not having a relationship with someone and having to hide my sexual preference from everyone. I have felt a sort of disdain for myself since "I am not right", according to my family's and society's religious and moral beliefs. But I am finally realizing that I can't change who I am and need to accept myself for me, and I should slowly start coming out to people I care about so I can be myself. I like some of the advice here especially getting involved with some gay friends to introduce me in some circles and to support me through this period. I hope I do. While I have enjoyed hiring escorts and met some really great people, I would prefer to find someone to be there at the end of the day to share the good and bad with and the sex would be more about completing the relationship and love as opposed to a physically stimulating experience. I have a feeling my oldest sister already knows, but I am not 100% sure, I will be seeing her next weekend and plan on telling her, then I will take things from there, slowly but surely I plan on feeling good about myself and then being able to shre myself with someone.

[Guest Bitchboy]

Tim, there are a few cogent things said if you can find them amidst the infighting. There are some bitter bitches who populate this place and they apparently live to primarily find fault with one another. You obviously need more direction than you can get on a message board and I do hope you find a sympathetic and wise counselor to talk with on a face-to-face basis. You're so close to NYC, and there are vast array of counselors here who could help you sort out all your feelings. Good luck!

[axebahia]

>and I do hope you find a

>sympathetic and wise counselor to talk with on a face-to-face

>basis. You're so close to NYC, and there are vast array of

>counselors here who could help you sort out all your feelings.

 

Tim, you don't need a counsellor or pop-psychologist. You just need to trust your own feelings. Basically, once you have chosen your counsellor, you will have chosen the advice you wish to receive. I fear for you that on one side, you will get either one teling you that you must embrace a gay "lifestyle" to be whole, or one telling you not to. So why bother? If you want to embrace that lifestyle and have made that decision, "just do it"! If you have not yet mae that decision, then don't. It's as simple as that. You don't need magic pills and witch doctors in white coats to help you make up your own mind. That's why God gave you your own mind!

[Boston Guy]

I have to say that I tend to agree.

 

Neither I nor any of my close friends needed counsellors to help us come out. The only thing we needed to do was do it in a way that allowed us to meet other gay people and have fun.

 

There's nothing wrong with you; you're probably simply gay. I firmly believe that's as normal a state as being straight and there isn't a thing the bigots of the world can do or say to change my mind. The fact that early religious leaders decided they didn't like gay people has nothing to do with the real nature of who we are or what we are or the contributions we can or want to make to society.

 

Therapists often make things worse -- I've seen gay guys end up spending years in counselling trying to deal with being gay and end up more confused at the end than ever. My advice is to accept that you're gay just like you're 38 and 5'8 and move on. Find a way to enjoy your life as a gay man. Make friends, have fun. It really can be that simple if you let it.

 

My one concern about what you've written is your decision to come out to your sister this weekend. This could be a great thing for you. However, if the first person in the world that you come out to is a straight person -- no matter how well-intentioned -- it's possible that it might not go well and you'd end up never wanting to tell another soul. Family can be unpredictable, though, and it might go really well.

 

My usual advice is to come out by making gay friends and really getting comfortable in your own skin first and then come out to family and straight friends. That way, you have a personal network you can fall back on for support if the family/friends thing gets rough.

 

But there's no right way or wrong way. I really wish you luck with your sister and remember that if things go badly, it's about her and not you. Also remember that it's taken you 38 years to begin to deal with it. It won' be surprising if it takes your family weeks or months.

 

Good luck,

BG

[woodlawn]

This thread degenerated rather quickly from one in which people were genuinely offering advice to one in which people were arguing with each other about which advice is best. I think that proves my point about seeking advice from people who have agendas other than helping you.

 

The advantages of seeing a therapist or counselor who has experience with people who are conflicted about their own sexuality are two. First, as I said, a good therapist should have no agenda other than helping you -- unlike some of the people who responded here, his advice is not directed at some other audience. Second, a therapist who has counseled many people in your position can present you with a much wider range of ideas and strategies than you can get by talking to one or even several people who have actually been in your position. And taking his advice is, of course, not compulsory. If it seems good to you, you can follow it, if not, not. So there's nothing to lose by seeing such a person.

[Guest fukamarine]

>So there's nothing to lose by seeing such a person.

 

You're right - nothing to loose except mega bucks. I'd try Boston Guy's approach first - wing it! Why pay thousands of dollars to a therapist who has a financial stake in how long it takes you to "accept yourself"?

 

fukamarine

[Guest soccerstud]

Tim--First. Good luck. The process you're embarking on is a frightening one--but one that can be so rewarding: Lifting the weight of years of concealment so that you can present yourself to friends and family as who you are is lifechanging.

 

About the issue of a counselor: I have been seeing a wonderful therapist for 3 years. (I had never been to one before.) He has helped me immeasurably. He has no agenda, and he is someone safe and caring whom I can just talk to. That's unbelievably helpful in your (and my) situation when, at the outset, you have no one else to share things with. I'd tell him how and what I planned to tell people, and by his questions he made me think through the process carefully. Interview a couple of therapists and make sure you're comfortable with the one you choose. And you should be telling him (not vice versa) what the agenda is and what you want to accomplish.

 

As for timing: I'm glad you've set a goal to tell your sister. (Think through who you want to tell first. Whether family (your sister) or friend, try to choose someone who you feel will be supportive. You can then move on to tell others.) But don't rush into it. Make sure you're ready to handle some negative reaction if that occurs. (If it does, you can handle it.) I knew way before I came out who would and who would not be able to handle it. My family (wife and kids) have been unbelievably supportive.

 

And if you feel up to it, share your experiences on the Message Center. Sure, there are some jerks who will trash anybody. But there are intelligent and helpful people here from whom you can get very useful feedback (as is evident from some of the previous posts). Most of all, good luck on your journey.

[woodlawn]

>>So there's nothing to lose by seeing such a person.

>

>You're right - nothing to loose except mega bucks. I'd try

>Boston Guy's approach first - wing it! Why pay thousands of

>dollars to a therapist who has a financial stake in how long

>it takes you to "accept yourself"?

 

Seeing a therapist for a couple of hours doesn't cost "thousands of bucks." A couple of hours should be long enough to allow a grown man to decide whether what the therapist says makes sense to him or not. And a reputable therapist doesn't try to prolong therapy in order to make money. Don't judge everyone else's ethics by your own.

[axebahia]

>Lifting

>the weight of years of concealment so that you can present

>yourself to friends and family as who you are is

>lifechanging.

 

From what he writes, and how he does it, I bet they already know and will just be relieved that they have to stop pretending that they already know or think they know he is gay. That being the case,

 

Tim, save the money, donate it to a charity or have one last wild escort session to do one everything you ever wanted to do with or to an escort but never got around too! Don't waste it on thereapeutic hocus pocus. Judge the quality of the therapy and therapists by their strongest advocates here - Woodlawn and Jack Hammer!!

[Guest tjsd65]

I appreciate all the different input, it is a good example of all the feelings I have been having for so long. I did try a therapist while I was living in Atlanta, but was unimpressed with him over th 6 visits and felt it was going no where si I stopped. I might start again if I was recommended someone by someone I knew well, with similar issues, but not sure on that. I do not plan on telling my parents since they are almost 80, I believe it would kill them. They are ultra conservative Catholics. But the questions on my marrying have slowed almost to a stop, but the going to straight strip clubs with my brothers is a regular thing I could do without and I would not even want them to come to a gay club with me. But I have always felt that I am just as sane and a regular guy as a straight man, but when I go home at night I prefer to be with a man over a woman. So I really don't want to make a big coming out day or party or anything like that. I figure I will go with my oldest sister first she's almost 53, and I think I slipped when I was a bit drunk one night about hiring escorts and she sent me a card saying she would love me no matter what. So this one should not be too hard, but then I have 5 more to tell 3 sisters and the two brothers will be the hardest. The girls may have an idea, but believe me when I tell you the guys have no clue. It make take a year or more, I won't put a time frame on it, I will take one step at a time and hopefully make some good friends and have some support along the way.

[Guest fukamarine]

>And a reputable therapist doesn't

>try to prolong therapy in order to make money. Don't judge

>everyone else's ethics by your own.

 

I am delighted to read of your Pollyanna approach to life.

 

By the way - these are not my ethics and you have a fuck of a nerve suggesting they are.

 

Now as Dr. Laura would say - "Go do the right thing"!

 

fukamarine

[Guest fukamarine]

>About the issue of a counselor: I have been seeing a

>wonderful therapist for 3 years. (I had never been to one

>before.)

 

Well - perhaps you are throwinhg your money away. The learned Woodlawn tells us two sessions should be enough.

 

Have you ever wondered about the validity of someone who choses the name of a famous cemetary as his nom de plume?? He sure needs more than two sessions!

 

fukamarine

[woodlawn]

>>About the issue of a counselor: I have been seeing a

>>wonderful therapist for 3 years. (I had never been to one

>>before.)

 

>Well - perhaps you are throwinhg your money away. The learned

>Woodlawn tells us two sessions should be enough.

 

You're lying. I said a couple of hours should be enough for a grown man to decide whether what the therapist says makes sense to him. In your case, it would probably take a lot longer.

 

>Have you ever wondered about the validity of someone who

>choses the name of a famous cemetary as his nom de plume?? He

>sure needs more than two sessions!

 

There is no need to wonder about you, however. The number of stupid, pointless remarks you make on this board eliminates any need to wonder about the kind of person you are.

[Guest fukamarine]

>>Well - perhaps you are throwinhg your money away. The

>learned

>>Woodlawn tells us two sessions should be enough.

>

>You're lying. I said a couple of hours should be enough for a

>grown man to decide whether what the therapist says makes

>sense to him. In your case, it would probably take a lot

>longer.

>

>>Have you ever wondered about the validity of someone who

>>choses the name of a famous cemetary as his nom de plume??

>He

>>sure needs more than two sessions!

>

>There is no need to wonder about you, however. The number of

>stupid, pointless remarks you make on this board eliminates

>any need to wonder about the kind of person you are.

 

Woodlawn - I'd say "Kiss My Ass", but you'd probably think I was wanting you to make up.

 

fukamarine

[woodlawn]

>Woodlawn - I'd say "Kiss My Ass", but you'd probably think I

>was wanting you to make up.

 

 

No, I wouldn't think that. For me, you are forever defined by the time you created a thread for the sole purpose of insulting another poster because he didn't know what state Provincetown is located in -- and in the process of insulting him about that, you showed that you didn't know the correct state either. That sums you up pretty well.

[Guest tjsd65]

Getting back on topic;

My sister is coming to visit on Saturday May 31- Sunday June 1, and my intent is to talk to her on Saturday night alone. I mentioned to you that I had slipped about 5 years ago after a few cocktails with her and she plied me with questions. Then the next day she said I said some crazy stuff the night before. She mailed me a birthday card shortly after and in it she said, “ Always know you can tell me anything- I’m a big girl and have seen quite a bit in my lifetime. If you need to talk, or just a shoulder to lean on – any secret is safe with me. And I will never stop loving or supporting you – no matter what." As you can tell I still have the card and was planning on giving it to her to read first, then I wasn’t sure if I would ask her what I actually told her or if I would just say, “well, I am going to take you up on your offer, are you ready?” If she says yes, then I will say, “I am gay” and see what happens and take it from there. If she says no, then uh oh, I am outta there, only kidding, I know she won’t. I was thinking about going out to dinner with her somewhere quiet or maybe just a walk. Drinks or no drinks? I might need one after at least. What do you all think would be right for the tone of the conversation?

[Boston Guy]

Oh, gosh, drinks for sure. She might need one, too!

 

She sounds like a kind person and a loving sister, so that bodes well. As long as you treat her kindly -- no matter how she reacts -- you're probably going to be ok.

 

I think it's worth mentioning to her that she is the first person you've ever told -- and why. Tell her that you trust her and love her and trust her judgment and all of the things you've told us.

 

I'd also tell her several other things that you've mentioned:

 

(1) That you've always known you were gay, or at least that you've always preferred men over women.

 

(2) That you're exactly the same brother she has always loved, exactly the same person.

 

(3) That you've decided that you don't want to lie to her anymore, that's it too important for her to really be a part of your life and that she cannot be without knowing something so fundamental about you.

 

This is the kind of stuff that's usually easier after more than one drink, in my experience.... usually it's been dinner and cocktails and drinks and then we get to the good stuff.

 

You might also ask if any of the family have discussed this before. She might surprise you there. Also ask her help on telling the others and see what she suggests.

 

Please remember that a lot of us are going to be there with you in spirit. If things get tough, remember that we've all gone through this and it all works out in the end for the better.

 

If you're comfortable doing so, please let us know that you're ok after the weekend.

 

I'll be thinking of you and wishing you lots of luck.

 

BG

[Guest fukamarine]

>No, I wouldn't think that. For me, you are forever defined by

>the time you created a thread for the sole purpose of

>insulting another poster because he didn't know what state

>Provincetown is located in -- and in the process of insulting

>him about that, you showed that you didn't know the correct

>state either. That sums you up pretty well.

 

Wow - Woody baby - you sure do keep a lot of trivial shit in that shriveled up old head of yours. Or do you just like to research the archives like your previous nom de plume used to.

 

Clear the cobwebs away and make room for more important stuff. Can't do any harm and who knows you might even be able to pull off being human.

 

fukamarine

[woodlawn]

>>No, I wouldn't think that. For me, you are forever defined

>by

>>the time you created a thread for the sole purpose of

>>insulting another poster because he didn't know what state

>>Provincetown is located in -- and in the process of

>insulting

>>him about that, you showed that you didn't know the correct

>>state either. That sums you up pretty well.

 

>Wow - Woody baby - you sure do keep a lot of trivial shit in

>that shriveled up old head of yours. Or do you just like to

>research the archives like your previous nom de plume used

>to.

 

No research needed. I remember the thread you created to insult that other fellow for being "geographically challenged" because it made me wonder what sort of mean-spirited asshole would even think about doing something like that, let alone actually do it.

 

I remember several other posts of yours for the same reason -- for example, the post in which you suggested to another poster that he hire someone to beat up a person he didn't like. It's not difficult to remember these posts of yours because there aren't many people posting here who have that sort of personality. Perhaps not any.

 

>you might even be able to pull

>off being human.

 

How would you know?

[Guest soccerstud]

Tim--

Your sister sounds wonderful and supportive. Great idea to bring the card along and say, in effect, "I'm going to take you up on your offer. OK?"

Boston Guy gave you some good advice. Other ideas (from my own experience 3 years ago): Be very open. She will, in turn, likely be open to you. (1) Tell her why you've been silent all this time (it may be obvious, but just saying it will make your conversations with her more open). (2) Tell her why you've decided to open up now--what led up to your decision. This gave my family great insight to what I had been going through. (3) Seek her input on who else you should talk to initially. (When I opened up to my wife, I wanted to tell the kids (grown up) immediately. She wanted to hold off, and she was right. She could see things more objectively than I could at that point.)

Be ready to answer questions from her. For example, have you had sex with men? How do you know you're gay? What difference will it make at work? How will we keep it from our parents if you tell evryone but them?

As BG said, let us know next week how it went.

 

PS to Fuckamarine and Woodlawn--Shut the fuck up already. This guy is reaching out for our help, and you guys are so narcissitic that all you can talk about is yourselves and your self-perceived clever little verbal bouts with each other. Make a date to meet each other in a bar tonight and fuck each other's brains out.

[Rick Munroe]

> (2) That you're exactly the same brother she has always loved,

>exactly the same person.

 

That's OK for him to tell her that, but I don't think it's true. If he's been pretending to be something he's not, then he's actually a very different person from the person she's "known" and loved, don't you think? He may have always been the same inside, but what he presented to the world was fiction. I think (and this is not from personal experience, so I could be wrong) that when someone comes out to their family, it's probably more of a shock that they've been lied to all these years than the fact that the person coming out is gay.

[Guest Bitchboy]

Since the original poster seems like a pretty thoughtful person, I would imagine he went back in the closet 20 posts ago.

[Boston Guy]

That wasn't my experience and I don't think it's been the experience of my friends, either.

 

If the conversation goes well, one of the things that they will end up discussing will be the process through which he has come to this point -- suspicion, denial, self-awareness, acceptance. Our society is still not open enough for everyone to "just be gay" throughout all facets of their lives. For some people -- certainly for people living in some parts of the US -- it can still be quite hard to come out.

 

With that in mind, I don't think most family members are going to react with "why have you been lying to me all of these years?" His sister sounds terrific and caring and she'll probably understand intuitively that he's been going through a process that has eventually brought him to her doorstep.

 

Looking at it from a slightly different point-of-view, I was recently speaking with my sister and a brother about the things we keep from our family. There are LOTS of things we don't tell each other and many more that we share among ourselves but don't tell our parents. Yet, we're a very close family and we're very supportive of each other.

 

Many of the things that we keep to ourselves are personal. I don't know and don't want to know if my sister enjoys giving blow jobs. Sorry, but that's simply too much information. Yet she's one of my closest friends and we share all kinds of things. She's even been with me to gay bars any number of times. But there are still lines I don't want to cross.

 

I think my coming out to my brothers and sisters (and parents) and saying "OK, this is important to me and you need to know this about me" was essentially saying "this is a line I now want you to cross" and they got that.

 

I'm not saying this very well, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is a very real difference between lying to your family and simply keeping personal information to yourself. And, in my experience, no one I ever came out to has ever accused me of lying to them by not coming out earlier.

 

BG

 

ps: I do think that he's "exactly the same person" as he was before he came out to her and "exactly the same person" she's always known. We know many people in many ways and don't have 100% knowledge of any of them. The process of coming out to her (or even to himself) can be very satisfying and I hope it is for him. But he is intrinsically the same person he was before.

[Rick Munroe]

>Many of the things that we keep to ourselves are personal. I

>don't know and don't want to know if my sister enjoys giving

>blow jobs. Sorry, but that's simply too much information.

 

There's a difference between sexual orientation and a specific sex act. You don't want to know if she enjoys sucking cock but you do know she is attracted to men. She doesn't lie and pretend to be a lesbian, does she?

 

>I'm not saying this very well, but the point I'm trying to

>make is that there is a very real difference between lying to

>your family and simply keeping personal information to

>yourself.

 

Exactly. But you yourself agreed that he's been lying. If not, why did you advise him to say to his sister, "that you've decided that you don't want to lie to her anymore"? I'm not passing judgement here (heck, I lie to my parents all the time...after eBay, it's my favorite hobby ); I'm just saying that a feeling of betrayal, that he wasn't able to trust them, might come into play (I'm referring more to the rest of his family than this sister who probably already knows.)

 

>We know many people in many ways and don't have

>100% knowledge of any of them.

 

But if they pretend to be something they're not, then we are getting a false impression and we don't really know them; we know the false image they choose to project.

 

>he is intrinsically the same person

>he was before.

 

I didn't say he wasn't; of course he's the same person. I said he's not what they all thought he was...there's a difference. As I said above (did you miss this?), "He may have always been the same inside, but what he presented to the world was fiction." But in any case, the important thing is that he's coming out. I'm ALWAYS happy to hear that.

[bluenix]

>Since the original poster seems like a pretty thoughtful

>person, I would imagine he went back in the closet 20 posts

>ago.

 

'Thoughtful' hardly begins to touch it. It's been five years since the sister all but broke down his closet door, and apparently he's been thinking about it ever since.

 

And now he's wondering whether the disclosing event should feature cocktails. To set the right tone.

 

I wish him well, but wake me when it's over.