Fake ads on M4M

[+ beethoven]

One of my masseurs told me last night that the photographer who does the photos for his M4M ads said that M4M had contacted him, asking him to take photos of models for fake ads on M4M. The photographer said that M4M promised to give him a percentage of the income from the ads. He declined. My masseur would not lie to me, and I believe every word. Especially since my recent string of phony masseurs, who don't reply to e-mails or phone calls, but have enticing ads.

[josephga]

yeah I first heard of this practice about 2 years ago and don't like it one bit. It takes sales away from those of us really providing a service. I also feel that M4M is trying to be to many different things. A massage site, A escort site and a porn site. imo those videos and photos don't belong on a massage site and makes it look low rent

[RockHard]

What does credibility mean to you?

 

I guess it shows the power of pictures, which may help to explain why a certain troll has found a welcoming home in the Gallery. What gay man doesn't enjoy looking at photos of hot men? (At least in the Gallery, she avoids the risk of being banned.)

 

Using fake photos to create massage ads as a business model, as M4M is doing, is really stupid, because it treats the customer marketplace like duped idiots. As a business, you either decide to sell hosting space for massage ads, or you decide to sell viewing rights to explicit photographs. Exploiting your ad subscribers while promoting fake ads to sell a picture viewing service adds up to one big FUCK YOU to everyone.

 

As a result of this business model, M4M has NO CREDIBILITY, therefore, you have to wonder why any self-respecting massage therapist (erotic or not) would want to advertise there.

 

Now, if M4M is offering incentive deals to their massage ad owners, paying hefty dividends to encourage explicit photo uploads, then maybe these ads are worth something to the massage therapists who advertise there. But how much are they worth? And are those therapists willing to sacrifice credibility when gay men stop using the site and paying the extra fees because word is out that many ads are FAKE, and all M4M cares about is squeezing more money out of duped customers?

 

Since credibility means just about everything in the erotic businesses, I would pull my ads from M4M, and invest that money in MasseurFinder or create my own website. Maybe there's some extra money to be made by selling viewing rights to view a massage therapist's erect cock, but I don't think anyone is buying a vacation home with the profits. And are you smart enough to ask the question, "What does credibility mean to you?"

[Electra 225]

I agree. I am not interested in wasting my money on a "fake" of any kind--provider, art, Rolex watch on the street corner--you-name-it. I have found http://www.masseurfinder.com to be a reliable resource (I am on the hiring side of the transaction) as well as, believe it or not, Craig's List (being careful to only hire those that have advertised for a substantial period of time as the fakes and scammers on Craig's List in my market--Houston--don't tend to advertise for long).

[josephga]

Out the 3 advertisers I have M4M actually pulls in the least sales. The therapeutic section of the Craigslist, masseur finder, clients sent to me from personal trainer, then M4M in that order.

[bigvalboy]

I agree. I am not interested in wasting my money on a "fake" of any kind--provider, art, Rolex watch on the street corner--you-name-it. I have found http://www.masseurfinder.com to be a reliable resource (I am on the hiring side of the transaction) as well as, believe it or not, Craig's List (being careful to only hire those that have advertised for a substantial period of time as the fakes and scammers on Craig's List in my market--Houston--don't tend to advertise for long).

 

The only problem with Masseurfinder's is the fact that any negative review is never seen. The site has said that the advertising space belongs exclusively to the masseur. That ad then becomes a space that is owned and operated by the masseur thus he can delete any review that is negative. For me that is as deceptive as M4M. Since a client can never see a negative review, then the perceived assumption is that the masseur has a stellar reputation, which is unlikely, but impossible to really verify.

[Electra 225]

Your concerns are valid regarding reviews on Masseurfinder and I take any advertisement, from any source, with at least a minimal "grain of salt". Regarding Masseurfinder (and any site, I suppose), I only hire from long-time advertisers and try to investigate as much as possible (look here for reviews, google the phone number, etc.). I tend to hire, for the most part, only local providers or well established visitors. Being relatively careful and only booking a first-time provider for a minimal period of time tends to reduce the "negative" factor or experience to a minimum. Even though the Houston market is relatively small, I have a number of excellent go-to providers that keep me happy and well satisfied. Like my stock broker always says: "Investigate before you invest!!".

[bigvalboy]

I tend to hire, for the most part, only local providers or well established visitors. Being relatively careful and only booking a first-time provider for a minimal period of time tends to reduce the "negative" factor or experience to a minimum.

 

Excellent advice....Most of my hires now come from recommendations from friends. Every now and again I will try someone new, but only after doing as your stock broker suggests, "Investigate before you invest" and I still have absolutely no reservations about walking away from an appointment, if in those first few seconds of meeting, I see a misrepresentation of some sort.

[Bosguy]

The misrepresenting issue in verbage and images seems to be an increasing issue. Personally, I plan to stay with my current guys plus their recommendations, the recommendations of fellow client friends, and, of course, Daddys Reviews and Forum input. If you want a totally enjoyable experience, why gamble with totally unknown despite supposedly gorgeous physical appearance and personal promises?

 

Boston Bill

[adriano46]

I long ago stopped checking the ads in M4M because I discovered quite a few were using photos of guys I knew who lived in Central Europe (one even posted photos of an escort I know lives and works exclusively in Moscow!). For nearly a year they had a supposed Russian masseur on M4M in downtown NYC who advertised he had an in-apartment sauna as part of the package, but to contact him was a maze of steps including signing up for his (expensive) private photos. I learned quickly that most of the guys wo have 10 and up photos on M4M (especially x-rated ones) are simply models and not the guy who may open the door when you arrive.

 

Masseurfinder, on the other hand, at least for me is more current. I recognize that there are no negative ads, but I can work from the many positive ads (or more -- the complete lack of ads) as a sign of the strengths of a masseur. And like others here, if I am very curious, I simply place the ad here in a thread and ask if anyone has had experience. It's pretty simple, really.

[Lohengrin1979]

Another thing to keep in mind is that many serious therapists, like josephga, keep ads on both sites. I always check for this, especially if my eye is caught by one of the pseudo adverts. If a therapist doesn't advertise on multiple sites, it's an indicator to me that they aren't serious about their business. Googling phone numbers is your friend.

 

Those fake ads are also ridiculously easy to spot. If they have both private photos and videos on their profile, then 9 times out of 10 they're fake. While a few of the established therapists have posted some modest portfolios of their "assets", they've chosen to forego the jack off companion vid. Another thing is that, again, almost without fail, the fake ads have 18 folios of adult pics all for 20 credits each. I guess M4M is just banking on guys scanning the site peripherally and falling for it. I'm sure there are some profiles with these indicators that are perfectly legitimate therapists but all of the fake ones I've run across fit this format.

 

 

Lohengrin

[RockHard]

The only problem with Masseurfinder's is the fact that any negative review is never seen. The site has said that the advertising space belongs exclusively to the masseur. That ad then becomes a space that is owned and operated by the masseur thus he can delete any review that is negative. For me that is as deceptive as M4M.

 

It's not deceptive. It's not the same kind of fraud.

 

A fair argument could be made that "negative reviews" have no place on a masseur-paid advertising site because reviews are (can be) a conflict of interest.

 

Why should a masseur, who's pays a fee for someone (M4M) to host his ad, tolerate the host for allowing (negative) reviews, which could ultimately affect the masseur and affect his ability to pay for future advertising space? Negative reviews hurt business. Hurting businesses don't pay for advertising.

 

Unfortunately, massage reviews don't rate as high as escort reviews in the minds of consumers. Maybe this has something to do with price-points. Maybe "licensed" massage therapists don't place much value on reviews, since most aren't providing sexual services. And why should the "tug-n-poke" folk give a shit? The "review" concept for massage therapists gets a little murky, and reviews don't really fit well into a masseur-paid advertising site business model.

 

There may be a market for a good erotic massage review site (which isn't financed by therapist ad dollars), but no one has delivered it yet.

 

If a therapist doesn't advertise on multiple sites, it's an indicator to me that they aren't serious about their business.

 

That thinking is way too narrow-minded for me. It's also ill-advised. Sounds like a man who can't get enough pictures to satisfy his massage fantasies.

 

In business, the financials have to make sense. There is a formula for figuring out advertising budgets, and if your business doesn't have enough money to do what you think is defined as "serious," you spend your ad money wisely.

 

For me, credibility trumps over-saturation, or worse, association with fraud. M4M is playing a fools game. We'll see if they can survive.

[bigvalboy]

It's not deceptive. It's not the same kind of fraud.

 

It most certainly is.....deleting negative reviews, and only showing positive ones presumes quality of product, which may or may not be the case. If it is not the case, then that is fraud, because you are concealing a defective product from the consumer. That is my opinion. If you do not agree, then Masseurfinders is there for your viewing pleasure.

[Nvr2Thick]

It most certainly is.....deleting negative reviews, and only showing positive ones presumes quality of product, which may or may not be the case. If it is not the case, then that is fraud, because you are concealing a defective product from the consumer. That is my opinion. If you do not agree, then Masseurfinders is there for your viewing pleasure.

 

Anyone creating his or her own website for the purpose of advertising services might include select references or testimonials. Opening up your advertising to unsolicited feedback is foolish. Concealing a defective product is just one aspect of this. As participants on this open forum we've seen how all manner of reviews can have negative effect. An infatuated, spurned client can submit a vindictive negative review. An infatuated, satisfied client can submit an exaggerated, gushing review. A masseur or escort certainly has a right to control his image on an advertising site. The idea that paid masseur advertising must be open to all reviews is about as silly as suggesting that Masseurfinder ads should be open to allow clients to post candid photos of the masseurs as rebuttal to potentially fake or out of date photos. It would be like expecting studios to put Roger Ebert's scathing pans on their movie posters.

 

When all is said and done Masseurfinder is an advertising site. "Caveat Emptor." We have to seek out the truth behind potentially fraudulent ad copy, pictures, or endorsements on open sites. Expecting a masseur to pay for unedited positive and negative feedback is idealistic and naive.

[RockHard]

deleting negative reviews, and only showing positive ones presumes quality of product

 

Maybe to a dumb-ass. But the more important point you seemed to miss. Maybe you need to be a business owner (in the service business) to understand.

 

As long as MF is charging therapists to host therapist massage ads, it is AGAINST MF's business interest to host negative reviews. It really is that simple, whether you wish to open your mind and learn something or not.

 

That is my opinion. If you do not agree, then Masseurfinders is there for your viewing pleasure.

 

Your opinion does not matter to me. Your lack of knowing how business works speaks much louder than your opinion.

 

I have no dog in the competitive marketplace. I don't give a flying fuck who uses which site to advertise or to jack-off. All I know: M4M is fucking over their users by incorporating fraud into their business model, and smart therapists who care about credibility should not support that site in its current state.

 

The decision for any hosting site to NOT ALLOW negative reviews to affect its subscriber base is NOT fraud. It's a smart business decision. Anyone who says differently may be an idiot.

[bigvalboy]

Anyone creating his or her own website for the purpose of advertising services might include select references or testimonials. Opening up your advertising to unsolicited feedback is foolish. Concealing a defective product is just one aspect of this. As participants on this open forum we've seen how all manner of reviews can have negative effect. An infatuated, spurned client can submit a vindictive negative review. An infatuated, satisfied client can submit an exaggerated, gushing review. A masseur or escort certainly has a right to control his image on an advertising site. The idea that paid masseur advertising must be open to all reviews is about as silly as suggesting that Masseurfinder ads should be open to allow clients to post candid photos of the masseurs as rebuttal to potentially fake or out of date photos. It would be like expecting studios to put Roger Ebert's scathing pans on their movie posters.

 

When all is said and done Masseurfinder is an advertising site. "Caveat Emptor." We have to seek out the truth behind potentially fraudulent ad copy, pictures, or endorsements on open sites. Expecting a masseur to pay for unedited positive and negative feedback is idealistic and naive.

 

I understand exactly what you are saying, and completely understand why Masseurfinder's has opted to run their site the way that they do. As a consumer however, their business plan does not work for me on a multitude of levels, so I have chosen not to use them. I use a variety of other methods for finding a masseur.

[josephga]

It's not right to allow negative reviews when the site owners are committing fraud themselves..

[RockHard]

their business plan (MF) does not work for me...so I have chosen not to use them.

 

Sounds like this user has his favorite site(s), or he got sucked into paying M4M's Premium User fees and now he needs to justify the expenditure. Or maybe he enjoys his "exclusive" access to the negative reviews that M4M allows with Premium membership. As if that money is well spent.

 

There is a certain psychological component when it comes to paying for something and/or favoring one site over another. And no matter what anyone says, if a customer likes Breyers, there's really no point in trying to convert him to Ben & Jerry's.

 

People like what they like, and are often willing to overlook what goes on behind the scenes, provided they ever bother to look. I'm sure M4M is hoping to hang on to those customers who think like bigboy.

[josephga]

People hold it against masseur finder for not posting negative reviews. M4M didn't post them either until they figured they could make money off of it. by offering a paid membership to view them. same thing with that preferred masseur symbol you see on some ads. they charge those masseurs to have that symbol no one prefers them. well m4m might prefer them since they are paying to have that symbol lol

[bigvalboy]

People hold it against masseur finder for not posting negative reviews. M4M didn't post them either until they figured they could make money off of it. by offering a paid membership to view them. same thing with that preferred masseur symbol you see on some ads. they charge those masseurs to have that symbol no one prefers them. well m4m might prefer them since they are paying to have that symbol lol

 

I agree Joseph with much of what you have said, as you and I have spoken many times in the past over the pros and cons of M4M and MF. Since both sites have elements that I don't care for, I long ago went about findings masseurs through other channels. I know you feel that how you advertise has served you well. As a masseur, it is always prudent to decide how to spend advertising dollars.

[bigvalboy]

It's not right to allow negative reviews when the site owners are committing fraud themselves..

 

That is an excellent point Joseph. I just see all of this in such a negative light, that my favorite masseurs now are all at Burke Williams.

[Nvr2Thick]

I understand exactly what you are saying, and completely understand why Masseurfinder's has opted to run their site the way that they do. As a consumer however, their business plan does not work for me on a multitude of levels, so I have chosen not to use them. I use a variety of other methods for finding a masseur.

 

Most of us are smart enough to use multiple sources. I hate Masseurfinder's trick of posting escort ads into dozens of cities to stack the deck with the search engines. Google a NYC escort's phone number and he'll show up in Masseurfinder ads from cities all over Northern NJ. MassageM4M's fake ads and fees for naked pics, Rentboy's duplicate masseur and escort ads, Men4RentNow's 60% stale ads -- all of these are crappy practices. I just think it's kind of goofy to expect an advertising site to open itself to negative feedback. It would be like expecting Home Depot to let you complain about a bad store manager on their Facebook page.

 

I rarely read the reviews on these sites any more. So many are gushing love letters to the masseur anyway. It's like the client is expecting that this will help him to bond in a special way to the hot guy who he just spent 90 minutes with. How many reviews do you read that sound like the client wants to believe that he made a "connection" with the masseur that ordinary clients will never achieve? When I travel I hit up all the sites looking for the right guy to work with. All I'm looking for is a picture, phone number and a little bit of information. I'm usually smart enough to see through the escort-generated and site-generated bullshit.

 

It just seems kind of funny to make a stand on principle for such things...

[Lohengrin1979]

That thinking is way too narrow-minded for me. It's also ill-advised. Sounds like a man who can't get enough pictures to satisfy his massage fantasies.

 

In business, the financials have to make sense. There is a formula for figuring out advertising budgets, and if your business doesn't have enough money to do what you think is defined as "serious," you spend your ad money wisely.

 

For me, credibility trumps over-saturation, or worse, association with fraud. M4M is playing a fools game. We'll see if they can survive.

 

Wait, what? You won't find many prominent masseurs in the gay massage field who don't advertise on more than one site. I like being able to check different sites since they all have different standards, as has already been discussed in this thread. If positive reviews show up on more than one site and they don't sound like they were written by the same author, then I can be more assured about where I'm spending MY money.

 

I completely understand the need for therapists to use their advertising budget wisely and not spread themselves too thin. However, not all of these sites require a huge financial investment, and again, many therapists do avail themselves of more than one site so it can't be that burdensome to their bottom line.

 

Finally, your quip about my needing photo fodder for my "massage fantasies" was cute. Completely unproductive and bitchy, but cute.

 

 

Lohengrin

[RockHard]

You won't find many prominent masseurs in the gay massage field who don't advertise on more than one site.

 

I know two "prominent" NYC massage therapists who service a very large gay clientele and who don't advertise on any site. Some service providers are so busy, so popular, they don't need to invest those dollars. There's no more room in their schedule to accommodate any more new customers. Advertising for them is unnecessary.

 

A fair question to ask: How good are you if you have to constantly advertise on multiple sites for long periods of time?

 

I like being able to check different sites since they all have different standards

 

Are the standards really that different? I don't see it.

 

If positive reviews show up on more than one site and they don't sound like they were written by the same author

 

It's still a crap shoot. "Sound like" is subjective perception.

 

Any Tom, Dick, and Harry can write a review on those sites. It is not difficult to ask a few friends (or customers you like) to write glowing reviews. If you give a decent hand job and can put words together to form a paragraph, you can write your own review, and do that over and over again. It's not that difficult. There are no checks and balances on massage-ad sites. You are not paying some admin to monitor IP addresses or care about truth. There's no mission statement. You, the customer, fall prey to perception, and M4M is counting on this as a business model.

 

not all of these sites require a huge financial investment, and again, many therapists do avail themselves of more than one site so it can't be that burdensome to their bottom line.

 

I haven't investigated the costs. You might be right, maybe the costs aren't burdensome. However, waste is waste, and if there isn't enough bang for the buck, we recommend putting that money elsewhere.

 

Tug-n-poke service providers know how the game is played. They know gay men like to look at pictures, and they know some gay men will pay to look at pictures that are exclusive to one site. IMO, it's a bate-hook-n-trap game centered on photo titillation with a few seductive words thrown in and the appearance of oversight (reviews).

 

Tug-n-poke guys don't care about legitimacy or credibility. Most are nothing more than escort posers looking to make extra money. Now, you can reach a point when you learn how easy it is to lure gay men into your business and get sucked into the hosting game these sites provide. And it's all a vicious cycle that costs money, offers little truth, and absolutely no customer satisfaction guarantees.

 

Sometimes a customer gets lucky and finds a true gem. Boy are they rare.

 

your quip about my needing photo fodder for my "massage fantasies" was cute. Completely unproductive and bitchy, but cute.

 

I did not mean to be bitchy at all. Again, massage-ad sites count on the "massage fantasy" game to make money. Without pictures to lure you into your fantasy, what's left?