Child's play

[Guest DevonSFescort]

This is a little long so I'm spinning off from the SSSSSSSSSSugar DDDDDaddddddyyyyyy thread, specifically Hagen and ad rian's exchange about whether men 24 and under should escort at all, and by extension whether clients who hire them aren't exploiting them and basically helping them fuck their lives up. Would it be too simplistic to say that Hagen is calling for a boycott of escorts under a certain age?

 

As some of you know, this topic is of more than casual interest to me because I introduced my friend Adrian, who falls within Hagen's jello-shot safety zone, to the profession. I absolutely adore my friend and would not want to do anything to harm him or knock him off his path in life, so I'm sensitive to concerns raised to the effect that that's what I might be doing.

 

To me it seems the fundamental question at any age is whether the person is well-suited for escorting. I admire people in any profession who know early on what they want to do; my little brother, for example, has known he wanted to be an architect sense he was three. He's twenty-five now and is, yep, an architect. I don't wish he'd spent his time at school conforming to some vision I might have of what youth should be like. I'm glad he got on with what he wanted to do. If someone's eighteen and wants to be a sex worker, well, I might have a few questions for him, but if he's got the desire and the ability for it (two things I lacked at that age), why hold him back?

 

Looking back, when I was nineteen I was already very slutty, and as an American living in London I had a certain expatriate charm which I was able to work, but I lacked the ability to put my personal tastes and preferences to the side. I could only sleep with men who were "attractive" to me, by which I meant men of certain body types, within a certain age range, etc. So it makes perfect sense that I didn't escort at that age. But for kids (and I use the term colloquially; the fact of the matter is they are adults) who are well-suited to the work and have what it takes to enjoy it, keep their clients happy and stay safe and hopefully move their financial goals forward escorting may be a perfect choice.

 

Let's don't forget either that escorting is commonly used to pay for college. Assuming a crushing debt in order to get an education is a "character builder" I happen to think people might best take a pass on if they have the opportunity to do so. Also, when clients tell me that they themselves have done a little escorting, almost always it was during their college years. These were successful, accomplished people who didn't seem noticeably wounded by the experience.

 

Also, remember that escorts don't all do this full-time. Adrian, for example, held down another job while he was in SF and moved to New York to pursue the career he went to a very good school to study. Yes, he's missing out on the character building experience of starving, or having to pass on certain unpaid opportunities because he needs to be working his character building shit job to pay the rent, but somehow that thought doesn't make me lose much sleep.

 

Another point is that we do meet some incredible people in this line of work, people who in some cases can help us get where we want to go a little faster, be it due to good advice they're giving or people they know who have people they know. (Bemoan all you want the "what kind of lesson does this teach them" aspect. Hiring is one of the least meritocratic areas of life. It's easier to hire somebody's friend than to run an ad and schedule interviews.) What counts is what the kid does with the opportunity. i know Hagen can't believe any kid would seriously listen to or benefit from marc anthony's advice, but I myself can't help wishing I'd met some of the guys I've met through escorting a few, uh, character builders ago.

 

What would the consequences be if all good people of conscience heeded Hagen's call NOT to hire young men? Don't we just pour a bunch of kids with declining grades, limited horizons, staggering debts and a small circle of acquaintanes into the "legitimate" economy?

 

Of COURSE if a kid is poorly suited to escorting, he'll have a bad experience, and that's a shame. But this is true regardless of age and I think the picture for 18-24 year-old escorts is not as uniformly bleak as Hagen paints it. For some guys it's the right thing at the right time, even, yes, at a younger age than it would have been right for Hagen or I do to it. Why infantilize them?

[ad rian]

Brilliantly stated!

[marc anthony]

Devon: xoxoxoxoxoxox

 

Beautifully stated....

 

From 3 well-adjusted "kids" that I hire, here is the latest news. One is applying to law school (debt free), and will get in with his nearly 4.0 GPA. One just sold his first painting at an art exhibit, and is really excited about it. And the last just changed his major to engineering as he begins his sophomore year in college, and is taking 15 credits.

 

Yes, others that I have been with may not be doing quite as well... but you hit the nail on the head. It's good for some, and not for others.

[taylorky]

LOL you did it again devon,thanks for showing your respect for guys that are young.so few of the guys on this board do or can. a few just seem really threatened by us,and at least one harbors real hatred.your post say,s it best we are just like y'all were 10,20,30,or 40 years ago.i make no apolgies for who i am. and i really appreciate your recognition of our ability to make decisions for ourselves.it means a lot thanks

[Rick Munroe]

>i really appreciate your recognition of

>our ability to make decisions for ourselves.

 

Now...when are you gonna decide to escort? }>

[phage]

>LOL you did it again devon,thanks for showing your respect

>for guys that are young.so few of the guys on this board do

>or can. a few just seem really threatened by us,and at least

>one harbors real hatred.

 

You really need to be specific. I can’t think of a single person in any thread that has ever expressed hatred for young men. Besides the fact that it would be like hating our own children, it would also be hating the object of many, many guy’s desire.

 

If you are taking Hagen’s concern about potential damage to young men as hatred, then you just haven’t been paying attention. I know you’ve missed some history here but he has been very consistent about this. The most cynical can try to brush it off as him being threatened by the competition, but that’s utter bullshit. Hagen is a grown man and appeals to a whole different group of potential clients.

 

your post say,s it best we are just

>like y'all were 10,20,30,or 40 years ago.i make no apolgies

>for who i am. and i really appreciate your recognition of

>our ability to make decisions for ourselves.it means a lot

 

However, WE are not the same as we were 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago. It’s silly to think the maturation process stops when you reach the age of legal consent. As the decades roll by, the process continues. Surely, you can see that you are not the same person you were five or ten years ago. Believe me, you’ll think the same thing five or ten years from now.

 

No one is saying you shouldn’t make your own decisions and your own mistakes. It’s more about the older, more mature and hopefully wiser guys taking advantage of that. Everyone will admit that there are very young guys who can handle it. They also admit that there are those who cannot. I think that Hagen is suggesting that the twink lovers not take that chance with someone else’s life.

 

Of course it’s never going to happen. A twink lover is going to do what a twink lover is going to do.

 

I respect Devon’s opinion enormously. He’s in the life and speaks with firsthand knowledge. However, so is Hagen and he has a point whether you want to face it or not. All this talk about his younger clients is crap. There is a HUGE difference between being the buyer and the seller and we all know that.

[taylorky]

uummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmuhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm LOL

[ad rian]

>No one is saying you shouldn’t make your own decisions and

>your own mistakes. It’s more about the older, more mature

>and hopefully wiser guys taking advantage of that. Everyone

>will admit that there are very young guys who can handle it.

> They also admit that there are those who cannot. I think

>that Hagen is suggesting that the twink lovers not take that

>chance with someone else’s life.

 

I guess what I find missing in this discussion is any real enumeration or articulation of the perceived potential harm to the young escort. It would help me a lot if one of the proponents of that view would attempt to explain rather than assert their position. Thanks.

[taylorky]

>If you are taking Hagen’s concern about potential damage to

>young men as hatred, then you just haven’t been paying

>attention. I know you’ve missed some history here but he

>has been very consistent about this. The most cynical can

>try to brush it off as him being threatened by the

>competition, but that’s utter bullshit. Hagen is a grown

>man and appeals to a whole different group of potential

>clients.

whoa did'nt expect that from .you might feel just a little guilty for what you said if you read post #46 in the sugar daddy thread . after reading what i said about ron hagen you can,t feel justified in what you said above.

[IamI2002]

Touching, but is it all theoretical froth. In your diary you asked for gay opinions for you school-age nephew and refused to give his e-mail with the statement something like: "Let this chicken have some more time in the barbecue." But a bit later, he visited you and, form your writings, it sounded like you went beyond shaking hands.

 

Are we hypocritical or just bareass painters?

[phage]

>I guess what I find missing in this discussion is any real

>enumeration or articulation of the perceived potential harm

>to the young escort. It would help me a lot if one of the

>proponents of that view would attempt to explain rather than

>assert their position. Thanks.

 

It’s a delicate subject. I tried to explain my personal views during the “street kids” threads a couple months ago and ended up offending many – including a couple of working boys whom I like and respect – so I’m not anxious to go there again.

 

In general, I do not think this is a healthy pursuit for MOST people – either buyers or sellers. Some have the perfect attitude and disposition for it, but many, many others do not. I participate because the flesh is weak, not because it is a “good” thing.

 

Let me ask you this. Could you do it? Could you rent your body to some guy you do not find attractive and is probably 20, 30, or 40-years older than you? I think it takes a special attitude, sense of worth, and unique sex drive to be able to do it without paying a pretty substantial price. I’m sure there are some good experiences, but I’m also sure there are some very bad ones that will take a heavy toll if they aren’t really cut out for this line of work.

 

I have no firsthand experience, which is why I value Devon AND Hagen’s opinions. We see the train wrecks all the time. How many of the young ones burn out, flip out, or drop out and then come back later? To me this demonstrates their desire to leave it behind but an inability to do so. Maybe because the money was too good or too easy or they just never prepared themselves to do anything else.

 

I’ve been trying to stay out of this because it seems easy for me to say since I’m not interested in twinks. I don’t know how much of my opinion is colored by that, and like I said, the flesh is weak.

 

However, I don’t try to pretend that I am actually ADDING something (besides cash) to the lives of the men I hire. That is something the twink lovers do all the time and it always sounds like hollow rationalization for the fact that they like young ass.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>Touching, but is it all theoretical froth. In your diary you

>asked for gay opinions for you school-age nephew and refused

>to give his e-mail with the statement something like: "Let

>this chicken have some more time in the barbecue." But a

>bit later, he visited you and, form your writings, it

>sounded like you went beyond shaking hands.

 

Yes. All the way to dry kissing. Scandalous!

 

>Are we hypocritical or just bareass painters?

 

Bareass painter? Definitely. Hypocritical? Sometimes. To be honest, if the gay nephew (he's not actually MY nephew, by the way; he's the nephew of a good friend) were to decide at some point that he wanted to be an escort, I'd support him and expect that he'd be a very good one. He's always been extremely precocious and adventurous sexually, and he enjoys the attention of older guys (not necessarily MUCH older guys just yet). Also, he recently won an amateur go-go dancer contest at a club. He's a natural performer.

 

But I admit I'd be squeamish about him starting to do it while he's still living with his parents...you know? But he'll be starting school in the fall, and if he decided it was for him, I'd want him to talk to me and benefit from my experience, but I wouldn't tell him not to try it. As it happens, he doesn't feel ready to explore that terrain yet -- he'd like to just concentrate on the books at least his first year. But his family is anything but loaded, and it's not impossible that he could reach a point where he needed the kind of money he could only make escorting. So he's got one eye on it, but for now it's just something crazy Uncle Devon does. From day one he has been sensible enough NOT to postion yours truly as a role model(regardless of what line of work I'm in), thank goodness. :7

[phage]

Sorry. I don't read everything and have zero interest in Dominic Dunne so I skipped over that part of the thread.

 

I now see that you don't mean Hagen, but like I said, you have to be specific to avoid this kind of confusion. Who are you talking about that shows hatred for young men?

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>I have no firsthand experience, which is why I value Devon

>AND Hagen’s opinions.

 

By the way, in case people can't tell or wonder, I very much value Hagen's opinions and enjoy reading them. He makes his points forcefully and with passion, and provokes a lot of great conversations.

 

>However, I don’t try to pretend that I am actually ADDING

>something (besides cash) to the lives of the men I hire.

 

You don't have to pretend. I suspect that you do add something, if only by being your interesting, provocative self when they meet you. I'm not being as smarmy as that sounds. Honestly, when I look back on my appointments, it isn't the sex I remember or focus on so much as the personalities, the intelligence and passion that came through, some random thing we found we had in common, that kind of thing.

 

>That is something the twink lovers do all the time and it

>always sounds like hollow rationalization for the fact that

>they like young ass.

 

Yeah, but just because it's a hollow rationalization doesn't mean it's not true. :*

[marc anthony]

I think

>that Hagen is suggesting that the twink lovers not take that

>chance with someone else’s life.

>

There is a HUGE

>difference between being the buyer and the seller and we all

>know that.

 

Phage: Like you, I have better things to do than rehash the same arguments over an issue that is too emotional to be decided by reasoned argument.

 

I just want comment on a couple of things that recur...

 

1) I agree, there is a difference between buyer and seller. And may I ask why is the buyer the one with the social responsibility? If someone who you admit has the right to make his own decisions and mistakes is free to offer himself for sale, why is the buyer the one taking a chance with someone else's life? Are drug users the ones responsible for the downfall of drug pushers?

 

2) I also agree that virtually every escort/client encounter is about cash and value, but why is it impossible for some people to believe that sometimes clients actually do have a positive effect on a young escort's life? I can categorically state that I have with some of my long time escorts, and people can challenge me all they want about that, but the fact will remain that it is true.

 

3) Finally, you mentioned that you respect Rod and Devon's opinion because they are in the business. And I agree, that their opinions have validity because they represent one perspective of the business. The other half of the business is the client. Some of them, like myself, have hundreds of encounters as our history. And even though we may have quite divergent tastes, I respect greatly the feedback of posters like Traveller, Hooboy, and others who have a similar broad experience. If I can give you one perspective based on a broad experience, why is it any less valid than that of Devon's or Rod's?

 

Anyway, I fully expect a rash of retort... but I am off to finalize my plans for my next escort spree, and that is much more fun to plan than to argue about.

[marc anthony]

>

>However, I don’t try to pretend that I am actually ADDING

>something (besides cash) to the lives of the men I hire.

>That is something the twink lovers do all the time and it

>always sounds like hollow rationalization for the fact that

>they like young ass.

 

Phage: I actually addressed this a bit in my LONG response to you, but just wanted to reiterate my point here next to the actual paragraph that it addresses.

 

As a twink lover who does like young ass, I can tell you that most of my encounters are adding only cash to the escort's life. But there are a precious few where I can guarantee you that I have added much more to their life, and them to mine. You don't know me, so you have no reason to trust me on that, except for me to say that I have no reason to make that up.

 

I start every escort encounter with a physical attraction to some young cute thing... and most end as just that. But like any other human encounter that involves intangible attractions, by sheer laws of probability (and I have a HUGE denominator, by the way), some of us have clicked on a much deeper level, and the result is positive impact on our long term lives.

[Guest wndrwoman]

>I guess what I find missing in this discussion is any real

>enumeration or articulation of the perceived potential harm

>to the young escort. It would help me a lot if one of the

>proponents of that view would attempt to explain rather than

>assert their position. Thanks.

 

Hi Taylor, Adrian, and Devon,

 

What you guys may not realize is that not all young men "your age" are as mature as you guys. I re-read Rod's point of view and only saw concern for younger men who might not always realize what they're getting into. Although we can't judge client's preferences for older vs. younger escorts, what I see from some members here is concern for a young man's safety, and while not always articulated well, love and caring behind it. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong?)

 

I understand where Rod's coming from when he states that "young flesh is corruptable flesh". I've seen it with young women countless of times; women who think that escorting is easy money, then in reality, find out that they can't handle the life.

 

Devon, we've emailed each other a bit (NCWndrmn) and if I didn't know how young you were, I'd swear you were at least 50! You've got a great head on your shoulders, plus you're a wonderful writer and artist! You obviously feel comfortable escorting and I commend you for knowing what you want and how to get it. But you've got to realize that not all young people are as mature as you (hell, I'm 40 and STILL don't know what I want!).

 

I disagree with the chiding of clients who do prefer younger men (once again, who the hell are we to judge?) but please know that many of us "older" folks do try to look out for the welfare of younger people. If I could stop one woman from making the same dumb mistakes that I have, I'd be a happy girl. I'm NOT saying that escorting is a dumb mistake. I'm just saying that it's not for everyone, and that if I had a young friend (male or female) who was interested in getting into the biz, that I would make sure that they saw BOTH sides of the story before making that important decision.

 

Sorry for ramblin'...time for another Darvocet...just had 4 wisdom teeth removed

:-(

tina

[Guest Kalifornia]

I have always found it amusing that Rod offers "Student Discounts" yet freaks if an escort is legalage and looks too young. I truly believe this is more jealousy than concern.

 

I love twinks and the younger looking that 18 - 20 y/o is the better.

 

Mark -Kalifornia

[phage]

I’ll try to be brief since you imply that you won’t be reading the response, but all I’m doing today is laundry and if I don’t respond it is the Internet equivalent of conceding the point. :-)

 

>1) I agree, there is a difference between buyer and seller.

> And may I ask why is the buyer the one with the social

>responsibility? If someone who you admit has the right to

>make his own decisions and mistakes is free to offer himself

>for sale, why is the buyer the one taking a chance with

>someone else's life? Are drug users the ones responsible

>for the downfall of drug pushers?

 

This is actually a pretty appropriate comparison. It is obviously the drug users who create the demand. The same is true for the twink buyers. If no one were paying, no one would be selling. In this case, the buyer has the social responsibility (If there is any. And I’ll freely admit that it is open to the debate we are having.) because of his advanced years, maturity, resources and status.

 

>2) I also agree that virtually every escort/client

>encounter is about cash and value, but why is it impossible

>for some people to believe that sometimes clients actually

>do have a positive effect on a young escort's life? I can

>categorically state that I have with some of my long time

>escorts, and people can challenge me all they want about

>that, but the fact will remain that it is true.

 

I’ve tried to be careful to avoid absolutes. I’m sure there are times when positive results occur. I’m really just talking about probabilities and likelihood’s based on gut-feelings and the same lack of empirical data that the twink lovers have. You seem to be the consummate gentleman, but I’ve got to believe you are the exception and not the rule. Some of your cohorts really creep me out. (The fawning over Mike Stefano when he was having “problems” comes to mind. I’d love to know how he feels about his career now.) I doubt that anything will ever convince me that a 20-year-old kid has the same coping-skills as a more mature man.

 

>3) Finally, you mentioned that you respect Rod and Devon's

>opinion because they are in the business. And I agree, that

>their opinions have validity because they represent one

>perspective of the business. The other half of the business

>is the client. Some of them, like myself, have hundreds of

>encounters as our history. And even though we may have

>quite divergent tastes, I respect greatly the feedback of

>posters like Traveller, Hooboy, and others who have a

>similar broad experience. If I can give you one perspective

>based on a broad experience, why is it any less valid than

>that of Devon's or Rod's?

Their perspective is more relevant to the subject because what we’ve been talking about is possible harm to their self-esteem or personal development. You can’t get into those kids’ heads so you can only state your impression of the encounters, and I don’t think a client can ever really know.

 

I’m pretty familiar with Trav’s exploits. He has never claimed to have anything but a good romp with the guys he hires. I believe you when you say that you’ve occasionally had a positive impact, but even you admit that it is rare. It just seems like it is frequently trotted out as a rationalization when it is, in fact, a pretty rare occurrence.

[marc anthony]

>I’ll try to be brief since you imply that you won’t be

>reading the response, but all I’m doing today is laundry and

>if I don’t respond it is the Internet equivalent of

>conceding the point. :-)

>

 

Phage: Your responses are actually very well thought out... and of course I was going to read them. I just wasn't going to get into a back and forth argument about this issue again (like I know you dont want to either). It seems that we agree on some points, and not on others.

 

But the bottom line is we are using rules of logic to defend affairs of the heart. It is like trying to convince the diehard fan of boxing that violence is evil in athletics. You don't care for twinks, so you see no point in hiring them. I love them, so I do. I try my best to treat each one well. Maybe other clients don't. I wish I could control that, but I can't. Sometimes this develops into a long lasting relationship. More often, it does not.

 

I am certainly not trying to proselytize others into liking them, and I am not implying that there are no segments of the population who would object to what I am doing... it is just always hard to swallow being criticized for it on a M4M escort review board by others who are doing the same thing with different groups, all of whom are above the legal age of consent in this country. But as both of us have discovered by our long histories on this board, it is generally not fun or useful to obsess about these issues on this board.

 

Now go back to your laundry... you made a great argument, and certainly did not concede the point (if there really is one)! LOL

 

:-) :7 :+

[Rick Munroe]

>I very much

>value Hagen's opinions and enjoy reading them

 

Hmmm...even when he declares that there are no such things as bisexuals? It's true that he passionately states his opinions but they're often done in an insulting/nasty way. Not for me!

[Rick Munroe]

>Sorry for ramblin'

 

You weren't rambling at all. I loved your thoughtful post and I want you to know that I think we're all lucky you're here. Being neither male nor gay, you're a true outsider here (I mean that not in a bad way); you bring a different perspective and we value your opinions (well, at least I think we ought to). And I believe you would be a very caring person to turn to if I were a youngster thinking of starting in this business. Plus, as I've told you in emails, I love that you're a FUCKING SLUT. :*

 

I'm not sure how you can call my buddy Devon mature, tho. He's always been very childish when we email each other.

[Guest Kalifornia]

>>Touching, but is it all theoretical froth. In your diary you

>>asked for gay opinions for you school-age nephew and refused

>>to give his e-mail with the statement something like: "Let

>>this chicken have some more time in the barbecue." But a

>>bit later, he visited you and, form your writings, it

>>sounded like you went beyond shaking hands.

>

>Yes. All the way to dry kissing. Scandalous!

 

Hey Devon, maybe not scandalous though illegal. If I recall he is/was underage at the time. Also, I find your use of the word "dry" interesting /// as if that makes it OK.

 

You also push Adrian and continue to refer to him as Kepper Twink and Boy. I don't think you are on solid ground here.

 

Mark -Kalifornia

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>>Yes. All the way to dry kissing. Scandalous!

>

>Hey Devon, maybe not scandalous though illegal. If I recall

>he is/was underage at the time.

 

He was not underage. He was eighteen.

 

>Also, I find your use of the

>word "dry" interesting /// as if that makes it OK.

 

Actually, if we had fucked it would have been OK. "Dry" is just being descriptive, as in, we kissed each other on the lips, no tongue, which is to say we didn't get very far.

 

>You also push Adrian and continue to refer to him as Kepper

>Twink and Boy. I don't think you are on solid ground here.

 

How on earth do I "push" Adrian (and into what)? And what has whatever nickname I've got for him got to do with anything?

[Guest wndrwoman]

Plus, as I've told you in

>emails, I love that you're a FUCKING SLUT. :*

 

Rick,

I believe that your term of endearment was "cool bitch". But I love you too, you cute-ass whore

tina