Chicago Str8 acting College Guy type??

[VaHawk]

>I've seen gay men change when they're in a group of their gay

>friends.

>That's one way to tell nature vs. the environment.

 

Or perhaps in a society that is still in many ways homophobic, it is the only time they feel at ease to express themselves. Of course, they change, they don't have to hide behind the closet doors when they are with their "own" in a gay establishement.

>

>And we all don't pick up on those mannerisms. I think that has

>alot to do with how comfortable you are just being yourself as

>opposed to blending in with the crowd and becoming "clonish",

>whether it's straight or gay. I'm always reminding an

>otherwise masculine friend of mine that I'm not his "sister".

>I can be his brother, but cut the "girl" crap.

 

Well, I myself am not that way, but I certainly don't begrudge others who are that way, which it seems you do. They seem to be comfortable with themselves, it sounds as if you are just uncomfortable with them. If you were a true friend, you would accept others and like them for who they are not withold your friendship until they conform to your ideas of what they should be like

>

>I find it interesting that there are people who are offended

>by the term "str8-acting", but seem to have no problem with

>gay men who

>perpetuate the stereotypes by their "affected" behavior.

 

And I find it interesting, that there are so many gay men who can't accept the diversity within the gay community. These are the people who rage at drags and leather men parading on Gay Pride. IMO these people are intolerant, which should be the antithesis of being gay and that these are the people who have trouble accepting themselves and are the ones uncomfortable with who they are (which is a "homosexual"!). These are the people who insist on defining themselves using the criteria of the "so called heterosexual community". As Taylorky suggests use the word masculine which is an adjective not "str8acting" with is a self-effacing, perjorative, offensive label.

[Guest jeffOH]

>Or perhaps in a society that is still in many ways homophobic,

>it is the only time they feel at ease to express themselves.

 

Yeah, right, with the exact same mannerisms, expressions, etc., as numerous others they're really "expressing themselves" exactly as their friends are...lots of individuality there. What does all that campy behavior have to do with being gay?

 

>Of course, they change, they don't have to hide behind the

>closet doors when they are with their "own" in a gay

>establishment.

 

Yeah, right, that's what being gay is all about...being with your "own".

 

>They seem to

>be comfortable with themselves,

 

That's why they've adopted the lingo, mannerisms and behavior they all learned at Camp Queer, so they can be "themselves".

 

>it sounds as if you are just

>uncomfortable with them.

 

Yes, I do find "affected" behavior annoying in anyone.

 

>If you were a true friend, you would

>accept others and like them for who they are not withold your

>friendship until they conform to your ideas of what they

>should be like

 

Thanks, but my "true" friends and I prefer to be honest with each other and not enable or support each other's delusions. We encourage each other to TRULY be ourselves. Many people can't handle that level of honesty.

I'm very accepting of others WHEN they are being themselves and not hiding behind the Gay Facade!

 

>And I find it interesting, that there are so many gay men who

>can't accept the diversity within the gay community.

 

What's so diverse about becoming a stereotypical, gay clone?

 

>these are the people who

>have trouble accepting themselves and are the ones

>uncomfortable with who they are (which is a "homosexual"!).

 

I've been an out gay man since 1982. All my friends,family and acquaintances know that I'm gay. I'm also an "out" escort who's not ashamed to show his face. My friends,family and anybody else who has asked(and many who haven't), all know that I'm an escort. So, I think I'm fairly accepting of myself!

 

>These are the people who insist on defining themselves using

>the criteria of the "so called heterosexual community".

 

I don't define myself by the criteria of the "so-called heterosexual community" nor by criteria of a bunch of Camp Queer attendees.

 

>As

>Taylorky suggests use the word masculine which is an adjective

>not "str8acting" with is a self-effacing, perjorative,

>offensive label.

 

I realized years ago, that words are just words, and mean no more than the meaning we assign to them. It's not the words that are the problem, but the mindset of the person using them.

 

I tell my friends that after years and years of trying to be what others expected of me, I realized that it's enough to just be myself. The best part is that in just being ME, I've attracted some of the most wonderful people in the world who've become my friends. I certainly never found that trying to fit in with the crowd.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest jeffOH]

>Or perhaps in a society that is still in many ways homophobic,

>it is the only time they feel at ease to express themselves.

 

Yeah, right, with the exact same mannerisms, expressions, etc., as numerous others they're really "expressing themselves" exactly as their friends are...lots of individuality there. What does all that campy behavior have to do with being gay?

 

>Of course, they change, they don't have to hide behind the

>closet doors when they are with their "own" in a gay

>establishment.

 

Yeah, right, that's what being gay is all about...being with your "own".

 

>They seem to

>be comfortable with themselves,

 

That's why they've adopted the lingo, mannerisms and behavior they all learned at Camp Queer, so they can be "themselves".

 

>it sounds as if you are just

>uncomfortable with them.

 

Yes, I do find "affected" behavior annoying in anyone.

 

>If you were a true friend, you would

>accept others and like them for who they are not withold your

>friendship until they conform to your ideas of what they

>should be like

 

Thanks, but my "true" friends and I prefer to be honest with each other and not enable or support each other's delusions. We encourage each other to TRULY be ourselves. Many people can't handle that level of honesty.

I'm very accepting of others WHEN they are being themselves and not hiding behind the Gay Facade!

 

>And I find it interesting, that there are so many gay men who

>can't accept the diversity within the gay community.

 

What's so diverse about becoming a stereotypical, gay clone?

 

>these are the people who

>have trouble accepting themselves and are the ones

>uncomfortable with who they are (which is a "homosexual"!).

 

I've been an out gay man since 1982. All my friends,family and acquaintances know that I'm gay. I'm also an "out" escort who's not ashamed to show his face. My friends,family and anybody else who has asked(and many who haven't), all know that I'm an escort. So, I think I'm fairly accepting of myself!

 

>These are the people who insist on defining themselves using

>the criteria of the "so called heterosexual community".

 

I don't define myself by the criteria of the "so-called heterosexual community" nor by criteria of a bunch of Camp Queer attendees.

 

>As

>Taylorky suggests use the word masculine which is an adjective

>not "str8acting" with is a self-effacing, perjorative,

>offensive label.

 

I realized years ago, that words are just words, and mean no more than the meaning we assign to them. It's not the words that are the problem, but the mindset of the person using them.

 

I tell my friends that after years and years of trying to be what others expected of me, I realized that it's enough to just be myself. The best part is that in just being ME, I've attracted some of the most wonderful people in the world who've become my friends. I certainly never found that trying to fit in with the crowd.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[dick_nyc]

Bravo!!

 

It brings to mind my asking just what is the "gay" lifestyle that we are supposed to be living. I don't personally that there is such a thing and very much resent anyone trying to get me to live the "gay" lifestyle. If someone could define it maybe we could all agree to live it, but I don't see that on the horizon anytime soon.

[dick_nyc]

Bravo!!

 

It brings to mind my asking just what is the "gay" lifestyle that we are supposed to be living. I don't personally that there is such a thing and very much resent anyone trying to get me to live the "gay" lifestyle. If someone could define it maybe we could all agree to live it, but I don't see that on the horizon anytime soon.

[alanalt]

>

>>You find it offensive, fine! Others find it offensive, fine!

>

>>That's your, and their, right. But don't tell me as a gay

>man

>>what 'I' should find or not find offensive.

>

>I apologize for my use of the word "should" in this case. I

>did consider my use of the word carefully before I posted.

>Even though it is a word I try not to use when advising others

>(or myself), I felt it was justified in this case only because

>it is obvioius that some people don't realize the harm they do

>to others and themselves by using seemingly harmless terms

>such as this one. If they would stop and consider why some of

>us find it offensive, they probably will see our point. If

>not, they're entitled to their opinion, of course, but I will

>continue to wince (and respond accordingly) whenever I hear or

>read it.

 

Apology accepted, of course. And I do appreciate where you're coming from and personally, I think there is some merit to what you and Rick and Taylor (etc.) are trying to get across. But I so find a strong difference between offering advice and (even if only by implication) claiming to speak for all gay men.

 

Anyway 'nuff said on this subject (by me at least! )

 

Alan

[alanalt]

>

>>You find it offensive, fine! Others find it offensive, fine!

>

>>That's your, and their, right. But don't tell me as a gay

>man

>>what 'I' should find or not find offensive.

>

>I apologize for my use of the word "should" in this case. I

>did consider my use of the word carefully before I posted.

>Even though it is a word I try not to use when advising others

>(or myself), I felt it was justified in this case only because

>it is obvioius that some people don't realize the harm they do

>to others and themselves by using seemingly harmless terms

>such as this one. If they would stop and consider why some of

>us find it offensive, they probably will see our point. If

>not, they're entitled to their opinion, of course, but I will

>continue to wince (and respond accordingly) whenever I hear or

>read it.

 

Apology accepted, of course. And I do appreciate where you're coming from and personally, I think there is some merit to what you and Rick and Taylor (etc.) are trying to get across. But I so find a strong difference between offering advice and (even if only by implication) claiming to speak for all gay men.

 

Anyway 'nuff said on this subject (by me at least! )

 

Alan

[VaHawk]

>Yeah, right, with the exact same mannerisms, expressions,

>etc., as numerous others they're really "expressing

>themselves" exactly as their friends are...lots of

>individuality there. What does all that campy behavior have to

>do with being gay?

 

Why are you so hostile to these people? If you don't like them, then do just as you are doing and not associate with them. Doesn't make them any less of a person, or any less representative of what it is to be gay than you are. As Rick implied, or at least I inferred, from his earlier post, that this is a trait that is not unique to the gay community. Most people you see in the gay clubs acting "campy as you call it" don't act that way outside of the clubs, and even if they do that is their "individual personality" and they have a right to express it, just as you express yours. And why is that any different than you and your friends having the same type of personality and traits by being the way you are?

 

>Yeah, right, that's what being gay is all about...being with

>your "own".

 

No, you have to be part of the entire community that makes up the world. But when you are suppressed by that world for most of your life and for most of your daily life still, those times when you are out with your "own" can cause you to just lose all the repressed feelings and emotions and just let it all hang out. Is that necessarily a good thing, maybe not, but certainly understandable. What is not understandable is someone getting all upset about gays feeling the need to do so.

 

>Yes, I do find "affected" behavior annoying in anyone.

 

Then you must be annoyed at one hell of a lot of people, not just gays who act "campy". I'm willing to bet that many of them find your attitudes and opinions and behavior annoying as well.

>

>>Thanks, but my "true" friends and I prefer to be honest with

>each other and not enable or support each other's delusions.

>We encourage each other to TRULY be ourselves.

 

As long as their TRUE selves conform to your ideas of how others should behave and act as gays. I suppose by these statements that you totally dismiss transvestites, transsexuals, and other's who don't conform to your opinions and way of living as totally delusional people who are "sick and should be locked away someplace, or even better yet, just exterminated". Do you carry that same attitude into your escort business? Don't some of your clients have delusions of fantasy or role playing? Do you just not accept those types of clients as you don't support delusions? I hope that is your policy, as to do otherwise, when you can't support those delusional role playing fantasies would make you a lousy escort.

 

>Many people

>can't handle that level of honesty.

>I'm very accepting of others WHEN they are being themselves

>and not hiding behind the Gay Facade!

 

I disagree, as imho, it seems your words indicate that you are only accepting of those who are your "clones", otherwise you dismiss the persons that others are, their worth, their individuality, their freedom of self-expression, or even their right to exist, by railing about stereotypes and the Gay Facade (which you have yet to give a definition of). Sounds to me that YOU can't accept the HONEST reality that gays, like the human population as a whole, are comprised of many types of people.

 

>I've been an out gay man since 1982. All my friends,family and

>acquaintances know that I'm gay. I'm also an "out" escort

>who's not ashamed to show his face. My friends,family and

>anybody else who has asked(and many who haven't), all know

>that I'm an escort. So, I think I'm fairly accepting of

>myself!

 

And your point is??? I've been an out gay man since 1972 and all my family, friends, aquaintances, coworkers and employers have always known that, ever since then. Doesn't make me some kind of gay icon who is allowed to speak for all gays and have the right to define how other gays should be or how they should live their lives. And the drag queens in the same circumstances as you, are less accepting of who they are? And those who go out in drag in public are out to the whole world - no one has to ask - which seems to me that they are pretty damn sure of who they are and accepting of who they are! I'd be willing to bet you don't wear a cardboard sign around your neck advertising the fact that you are a gay escort.

 

>I realized years ago, that words are just words, and mean no

>more than the meaning we assign to them. It's not the words

>that are the problem, but the mindset of the person using

>them.

 

And what does it say about your mindset when you use terms such as Camp Queer, gay clone, gay facade, campy queens, etc?

 

>I tell my friends that after years and years of trying to be

>what others expected of me, I realized that it's enough to

>just be myself. The best part is that in just being ME, I've

>attracted some of the most wonderful people in the world

>who've become my friends. I certainly never found that trying

>to fit in with the crowd.

 

And yet, you think others should deny themselves and try to be what you expect of them!!!! They let you be yourself, so extend the same respect and let them be themselves! I'm sure they have attracted many wonderful people who are friends to them also. As far as fitting in with the crowd, you have done just that, imo, just not the crowd that you brand as the "stereotypical gay clone".

[VaHawk]

>Yeah, right, with the exact same mannerisms, expressions,

>etc., as numerous others they're really "expressing

>themselves" exactly as their friends are...lots of

>individuality there. What does all that campy behavior have to

>do with being gay?

 

Why are you so hostile to these people? If you don't like them, then do just as you are doing and not associate with them. Doesn't make them any less of a person, or any less representative of what it is to be gay than you are. As Rick implied, or at least I inferred, from his earlier post, that this is a trait that is not unique to the gay community. Most people you see in the gay clubs acting "campy as you call it" don't act that way outside of the clubs, and even if they do that is their "individual personality" and they have a right to express it, just as you express yours. And why is that any different than you and your friends having the same type of personality and traits by being the way you are?

 

>Yeah, right, that's what being gay is all about...being with

>your "own".

 

No, you have to be part of the entire community that makes up the world. But when you are suppressed by that world for most of your life and for most of your daily life still, those times when you are out with your "own" can cause you to just lose all the repressed feelings and emotions and just let it all hang out. Is that necessarily a good thing, maybe not, but certainly understandable. What is not understandable is someone getting all upset about gays feeling the need to do so.

 

>Yes, I do find "affected" behavior annoying in anyone.

 

Then you must be annoyed at one hell of a lot of people, not just gays who act "campy". I'm willing to bet that many of them find your attitudes and opinions and behavior annoying as well.

>

>>Thanks, but my "true" friends and I prefer to be honest with

>each other and not enable or support each other's delusions.

>We encourage each other to TRULY be ourselves.

 

As long as their TRUE selves conform to your ideas of how others should behave and act as gays. I suppose by these statements that you totally dismiss transvestites, transsexuals, and other's who don't conform to your opinions and way of living as totally delusional people who are "sick and should be locked away someplace, or even better yet, just exterminated". Do you carry that same attitude into your escort business? Don't some of your clients have delusions of fantasy or role playing? Do you just not accept those types of clients as you don't support delusions? I hope that is your policy, as to do otherwise, when you can't support those delusional role playing fantasies would make you a lousy escort.

 

>Many people

>can't handle that level of honesty.

>I'm very accepting of others WHEN they are being themselves

>and not hiding behind the Gay Facade!

 

I disagree, as imho, it seems your words indicate that you are only accepting of those who are your "clones", otherwise you dismiss the persons that others are, their worth, their individuality, their freedom of self-expression, or even their right to exist, by railing about stereotypes and the Gay Facade (which you have yet to give a definition of). Sounds to me that YOU can't accept the HONEST reality that gays, like the human population as a whole, are comprised of many types of people.

 

>I've been an out gay man since 1982. All my friends,family and

>acquaintances know that I'm gay. I'm also an "out" escort

>who's not ashamed to show his face. My friends,family and

>anybody else who has asked(and many who haven't), all know

>that I'm an escort. So, I think I'm fairly accepting of

>myself!

 

And your point is??? I've been an out gay man since 1972 and all my family, friends, aquaintances, coworkers and employers have always known that, ever since then. Doesn't make me some kind of gay icon who is allowed to speak for all gays and have the right to define how other gays should be or how they should live their lives. And the drag queens in the same circumstances as you, are less accepting of who they are? And those who go out in drag in public are out to the whole world - no one has to ask - which seems to me that they are pretty damn sure of who they are and accepting of who they are! I'd be willing to bet you don't wear a cardboard sign around your neck advertising the fact that you are a gay escort.

 

>I realized years ago, that words are just words, and mean no

>more than the meaning we assign to them. It's not the words

>that are the problem, but the mindset of the person using

>them.

 

And what does it say about your mindset when you use terms such as Camp Queer, gay clone, gay facade, campy queens, etc?

 

>I tell my friends that after years and years of trying to be

>what others expected of me, I realized that it's enough to

>just be myself. The best part is that in just being ME, I've

>attracted some of the most wonderful people in the world

>who've become my friends. I certainly never found that trying

>to fit in with the crowd.

 

And yet, you think others should deny themselves and try to be what you expect of them!!!! They let you be yourself, so extend the same respect and let them be themselves! I'm sure they have attracted many wonderful people who are friends to them also. As far as fitting in with the crowd, you have done just that, imo, just not the crowd that you brand as the "stereotypical gay clone".

[Flower]

[font color="green"

] SHOOGAR, I don't always agree with you, but certainly do here, with your last few posts here }( YOU GO GURL! :*

 

And I'm serious Hawk, and because you've said so well there is no need for me to repeat--but I will:+

 

Even exaggerated mannerisms is an expression of who a person is. The kid with spiked green hair, the woman with 10 (count 'em folks-10) piercing in her left ear, the skater boi with his dudes and awwwsomes and the MOs calling each other gurl and sister and taking on girl names as nick names are all expressions of that person's self--whether we happen to agree or not. If a person takes on a persona, who is to say that is any more phony or less real than the macho acting tough guy image that impresses a young gay boi watching an old James Dean movie and changes his persona for years?

 

Haven't we all taken on expressions we thought were cool or liked after we heard someone else same them for the first time? Is that any different really, except maybe in degree?

 

We all are trying to portray an image of who we think we are or want to be. JeffOh evidently has a self image, I guess, different that some drag queen or what he calls camp clones. But is his self image and how he portrays it any more real than the camp queens or the sister-act--clones or not?

 

What makes it any more real JeffOh? This is NOT an attack btw--as I've always appreciated your posts and agree with many, but I don't agree with you here. I do agree with Hawk and the SISTER knows I don't always.

 

Self expression is very individualistic and I'm not sure that even in the case of the most effeminate camp Queen as JeffOh used the term, anyone can really say that SHE isn't really portraying HER self image and simply projecting the personification of who SHE thinks she is or wants to be.

 

I recently told a very close straight friend I was gay--his exact words were: "WOW, I never saw that coming--you're kidding right?" He of course only knew my masculine "str8 acting" persona I've had for too many years to count--while that might be the persona JeffOh would be more comfortable with, it was and is as phony as any "swishy prissy" camp queen being criticized here.

 

On the other hand, I really have fun going out with my group of gay friends (admittedly in a more metropolitan area from where I live and practice) and just going with the flow--whether its a sister-act or not -- I find it both fun and liberating and since I enjoy it, find it hard to say it's not part of who I am. I dare say that if both Hawk and Jeff were in the restaurant while we were doing our thing (not loud obnoxious or bothering anyone btw) JeffOh sounds like he'd be offended or annoyed while Hawk sounds as if he'd live and let live.

[Flower]

[font color="green"

] SHOOGAR, I don't always agree with you, but certainly do here, with your last few posts here }( YOU GO GURL! :*

 

And I'm serious Hawk, and because you've said so well there is no need for me to repeat--but I will:+

 

Even exaggerated mannerisms is an expression of who a person is. The kid with spiked green hair, the woman with 10 (count 'em folks-10) piercing in her left ear, the skater boi with his dudes and awwwsomes and the MOs calling each other gurl and sister and taking on girl names as nick names are all expressions of that person's self--whether we happen to agree or not. If a person takes on a persona, who is to say that is any more phony or less real than the macho acting tough guy image that impresses a young gay boi watching an old James Dean movie and changes his persona for years?

 

Haven't we all taken on expressions we thought were cool or liked after we heard someone else same them for the first time? Is that any different really, except maybe in degree?

 

We all are trying to portray an image of who we think we are or want to be. JeffOh evidently has a self image, I guess, different that some drag queen or what he calls camp clones. But is his self image and how he portrays it any more real than the camp queens or the sister-act--clones or not?

 

What makes it any more real JeffOh? This is NOT an attack btw--as I've always appreciated your posts and agree with many, but I don't agree with you here. I do agree with Hawk and the SISTER knows I don't always.

 

Self expression is very individualistic and I'm not sure that even in the case of the most effeminate camp Queen as JeffOh used the term, anyone can really say that SHE isn't really portraying HER self image and simply projecting the personification of who SHE thinks she is or wants to be.

 

I recently told a very close straight friend I was gay--his exact words were: "WOW, I never saw that coming--you're kidding right?" He of course only knew my masculine "str8 acting" persona I've had for too many years to count--while that might be the persona JeffOh would be more comfortable with, it was and is as phony as any "swishy prissy" camp queen being criticized here.

 

On the other hand, I really have fun going out with my group of gay friends (admittedly in a more metropolitan area from where I live and practice) and just going with the flow--whether its a sister-act or not -- I find it both fun and liberating and since I enjoy it, find it hard to say it's not part of who I am. I dare say that if both Hawk and Jeff were in the restaurant while we were doing our thing (not loud obnoxious or bothering anyone btw) JeffOh sounds like he'd be offended or annoyed while Hawk sounds as if he'd live and let live.

[Guest Derek Ross]

>I avoided effeminate guys like the

>plague--didn't want guilt by association

 

Excellent observation and very common behavior. There was this guy at my old gym (Steel) who was a total musclehead who only hung out with other guys who were fellow steroidal freaks. I once asked him if he had any "small" or normal (natural?) sized friends. He seriously answered that he couldn't associate with anyone "small" because people would think that he was small, too, if he were with them. He seemed to shudder at the thought.

 

People often avoid what they fear within.

[Guest Derek Ross]

>I avoided effeminate guys like the

>plague--didn't want guilt by association

 

Excellent observation and very common behavior. There was this guy at my old gym (Steel) who was a total musclehead who only hung out with other guys who were fellow steroidal freaks. I once asked him if he had any "small" or normal (natural?) sized friends. He seriously answered that he couldn't associate with anyone "small" because people would think that he was small, too, if he were with them. He seemed to shudder at the thought.

 

People often avoid what they fear within.

[Guest jeffOH]

>Why are you so hostile to these people?

 

I'm not being hostile. I just don't believe adopting the mannerisms of a group is in any way expressing your "individuality".

 

>If you don't like

>them, then do just as you are doing and not associate with

>them.

 

Thanks, that's just what I do. I prefer to associate with people who are being REAL.

 

>Doesn't make them any less of a person, or any less

>representative of what it is to be gay than you are.

 

I never said that it does make them any less of a person. There behavior just makes them blend in with the crowd. Not my idea of individuality or diversity.

 

>As Rick

>implied, or at least I inferred, from his earlier post, that

>this is a trait that is not unique to the gay community. Most

>people you see in the gay clubs acting "campy as you call it"

>don't act that way outside of the clubs, and even if they do

>that is their "individual personality" and they have a right

>to express it, just as you express yours.

 

Sure, it's their right to express it, I just hope that one day they can drop the lingo, mannerisms, behaviors and truly be themselves and not some gay caricature. There's nothing "individual" about it if you're indistinguishable from the crowd.

 

>And why is that any

>different than you and your friends having the same type of

>personality and traits by being the way you are?

 

Because my friends and I AREN'T all alike. We hang out with a truly diverse crowd BECAUSE we're comfortable being ourselves whether we're in a gay bar or not.

 

>No, you have to be part of the entire community that makes up

>the world.

 

By adopting the lingo, mannerisms, behavior of other gay men as if you're in some exclusive club, you only segregate yourself from the "entire community that makes up the world".

 

>But when you are suppressed by that world for most

>of your life and for most of your daily life still, those

>times when you are out with your "own" can cause you to just

>lose all the repressed feelings and emotions and just let it

>all hang out.

 

Perhaps initially, but years down the road hopefully someone is more comfortable being themselves with their "own" and not want so much to fit in that they compromise their individuality.

 

>Is that necessarily a good thing, maybe not,

>but certainly understandable. What is not understandable is

>someone getting all upset about gays feeling the need to do

>so.

 

The strongest word I've used is ANNOYED, ok? Don't start characterizing me as intolerant.

 

>Then you must be annoyed at one hell of a lot of people, not

>just gays who act "campy". I'm willing to bet that many of

>them find your attitudes and opinions and behavior annoying as

>well.

 

Once again, I stopped caring what others thought about my "attitudes, opinions and behaviors", when I realized that in trying to please others and "fit in" I was losing my individuality.

 

>I suppose by these

>statements that you totally dismiss transvestites,

>transsexuals, and other's who don't conform to your opinions

>and way of living

 

Wrong, I've met and befriended transvestites and transexuals who were complete individuals and not cookie-cutter drag queens. I can respect that.

 

>who are sick

>and should be locked away someplace, or even better yet, just

>exterminated".

 

You've said this not me. It's simply the "herd mentality" I don't go along with.

 

>Do you carry that same attitude into your

>escort business?

 

NO! I don't. My clients are a diverse bunch of guys and I enjoy hearing all their different stories. I'm very accepting of my clients. 12 years in this business and my reviews speak for themselves.

 

>Don't some of your clients have delusions of

>fantasy or role playing?

 

Yes, they do, in a sexual setting. What exactly does that have to do with the reality of day to day life? I simply don't find it necessary to adopt the mannerisms, lingo and behavior of others to "express myself" as an individual. To me, that's fantasy and role-playing which isn't real life. So, in my mind, they're still living behind a facade.

 

>Do you just not accept those types

>of clients as you don't support delusions?

 

I'm being paid to fulfill a fantasy of some sort in a sexual setting as entertainment.

 

>I hope that is

>your policy, as to do otherwise, when you can't support those

>delusional role playing fantasies would make you a lousy

>escort.

 

I'm a great escort and my beliefs and attitudes have served me well. When I stopped trying to fit in and go along with the crowd, I really got to know and love myself as I am. I didn't feel the need to assimilate in order to find external validation. I found that it was enough to just be ME and in doing so I attracted people to me who loved me as I am. NOT the facade I'd put up, but me, warts and all.

 

>I disagree, as imho, it seems your words indicate that you are

>only accepting of those who are your "clones"

 

Wrong! My friends are all individuals with their own quirks and characteristics. That's what I love about them, because they don't feel it necessary to celebrate their "gayness" en masse in role-playing personas. They know the difference between REALITY and FANTASY and don't have to resort to tired, stereotypical cliches to express themselves.

 

>otherwise you

>dismiss the persons that others are, their worth, their

>individuality, their freedom of self-expression

 

What I do dismiss is the "self-expression" of "their individuality" when it's "affected stereotypical behavior" indistinguishable from the crowd.

 

>or even their

>right to exist, by railing about stereotypes and the Gay

>Facade (which you have yet to give a definition of).

 

Over and over I've defined it. Others here seem to get it. Sorry that you don't.

 

>Sounds

>to me that YOU can't accept the HONEST reality that gays, like

>the human population as a whole, are comprised of many types

>of people.

 

I'm accepting of "many HONEST types of people"...not conformity, not stereotypes.

 

> Doesn't make me some

>kind of gay icon who is allowed to speak for all gays and have

>the right to define how other gays should be or how they

>should live their lives.

 

Nor am I some kind of "gay icon". I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I don't care if one or one million people believe the way I do. I simply don't believe people are being themselves when they've adopted the expressions, mannerisms, behaviors of a group and try to pass that off as some sort of "individuality" or "self-expression". When you're assimilated into a group there's nothing "individual" or "self-expressing" about it.

 

>I'd

>be willing to bet you don't wear a cardboard sign around your

>neck advertising the fact that you are a gay escort.

 

And you'd lose that bet! I went on the local ABC news affiliate to be interviewed about being an escort and got interviewed by a local paper about it! Everyone in my life knows that I'm gay and an escort.

 

>And what does it say about your mindset when you use terms

>such as Camp Queer, gay clone, gay facade, campy queens, etc?

 

I think it says that I'm comfortable enough that I don't have to try to fit in with the crowd to express myself as a gay man. It's enough to just be me. I just think some gay men work too hard at "being GAY"!

 

>And yet, you think others should deny themselves and try to be

>what you expect of them!!!!

 

Never said that! I'm not out to change the world.

 

>They let you be yourself, so

>extend the same respect and let them be themselves!

 

They tried for years to suck me into the cliched, stereotypical gay life. I had to not be afraid to express myself as an individual. It had nothing to do with them extending me any sort of respect. They wanted to label me, but I wouldn't stand still long enough.

 

>I'm sure

>they have attracted many wonderful people who are friends to

>them also. As far as fitting in with the crowd, you have done

>just that, imo, just not the crowd that you brand as the

>"stereotypical gay clone".

 

As I said before, my friends are individuals. Gay, straight, bi, drag queens, porn stars, escorts, whatever. We encourage each other to truly express our individuality and don't feel the need to express our homosexuality in everyday life through fantasy and role-playing.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest jeffOH]

>Why are you so hostile to these people?

 

I'm not being hostile. I just don't believe adopting the mannerisms of a group is in any way expressing your "individuality".

 

>If you don't like

>them, then do just as you are doing and not associate with

>them.

 

Thanks, that's just what I do. I prefer to associate with people who are being REAL.

 

>Doesn't make them any less of a person, or any less

>representative of what it is to be gay than you are.

 

I never said that it does make them any less of a person. There behavior just makes them blend in with the crowd. Not my idea of individuality or diversity.

 

>As Rick

>implied, or at least I inferred, from his earlier post, that

>this is a trait that is not unique to the gay community. Most

>people you see in the gay clubs acting "campy as you call it"

>don't act that way outside of the clubs, and even if they do

>that is their "individual personality" and they have a right

>to express it, just as you express yours.

 

Sure, it's their right to express it, I just hope that one day they can drop the lingo, mannerisms, behaviors and truly be themselves and not some gay caricature. There's nothing "individual" about it if you're indistinguishable from the crowd.

 

>And why is that any

>different than you and your friends having the same type of

>personality and traits by being the way you are?

 

Because my friends and I AREN'T all alike. We hang out with a truly diverse crowd BECAUSE we're comfortable being ourselves whether we're in a gay bar or not.

 

>No, you have to be part of the entire community that makes up

>the world.

 

By adopting the lingo, mannerisms, behavior of other gay men as if you're in some exclusive club, you only segregate yourself from the "entire community that makes up the world".

 

>But when you are suppressed by that world for most

>of your life and for most of your daily life still, those

>times when you are out with your "own" can cause you to just

>lose all the repressed feelings and emotions and just let it

>all hang out.

 

Perhaps initially, but years down the road hopefully someone is more comfortable being themselves with their "own" and not want so much to fit in that they compromise their individuality.

 

>Is that necessarily a good thing, maybe not,

>but certainly understandable. What is not understandable is

>someone getting all upset about gays feeling the need to do

>so.

 

The strongest word I've used is ANNOYED, ok? Don't start characterizing me as intolerant.

 

>Then you must be annoyed at one hell of a lot of people, not

>just gays who act "campy". I'm willing to bet that many of

>them find your attitudes and opinions and behavior annoying as

>well.

 

Once again, I stopped caring what others thought about my "attitudes, opinions and behaviors", when I realized that in trying to please others and "fit in" I was losing my individuality.

 

>I suppose by these

>statements that you totally dismiss transvestites,

>transsexuals, and other's who don't conform to your opinions

>and way of living

 

Wrong, I've met and befriended transvestites and transexuals who were complete individuals and not cookie-cutter drag queens. I can respect that.

 

>who are sick

>and should be locked away someplace, or even better yet, just

>exterminated".

 

You've said this not me. It's simply the "herd mentality" I don't go along with.

 

>Do you carry that same attitude into your

>escort business?

 

NO! I don't. My clients are a diverse bunch of guys and I enjoy hearing all their different stories. I'm very accepting of my clients. 12 years in this business and my reviews speak for themselves.

 

>Don't some of your clients have delusions of

>fantasy or role playing?

 

Yes, they do, in a sexual setting. What exactly does that have to do with the reality of day to day life? I simply don't find it necessary to adopt the mannerisms, lingo and behavior of others to "express myself" as an individual. To me, that's fantasy and role-playing which isn't real life. So, in my mind, they're still living behind a facade.

 

>Do you just not accept those types

>of clients as you don't support delusions?

 

I'm being paid to fulfill a fantasy of some sort in a sexual setting as entertainment.

 

>I hope that is

>your policy, as to do otherwise, when you can't support those

>delusional role playing fantasies would make you a lousy

>escort.

 

I'm a great escort and my beliefs and attitudes have served me well. When I stopped trying to fit in and go along with the crowd, I really got to know and love myself as I am. I didn't feel the need to assimilate in order to find external validation. I found that it was enough to just be ME and in doing so I attracted people to me who loved me as I am. NOT the facade I'd put up, but me, warts and all.

 

>I disagree, as imho, it seems your words indicate that you are

>only accepting of those who are your "clones"

 

Wrong! My friends are all individuals with their own quirks and characteristics. That's what I love about them, because they don't feel it necessary to celebrate their "gayness" en masse in role-playing personas. They know the difference between REALITY and FANTASY and don't have to resort to tired, stereotypical cliches to express themselves.

 

>otherwise you

>dismiss the persons that others are, their worth, their

>individuality, their freedom of self-expression

 

What I do dismiss is the "self-expression" of "their individuality" when it's "affected stereotypical behavior" indistinguishable from the crowd.

 

>or even their

>right to exist, by railing about stereotypes and the Gay

>Facade (which you have yet to give a definition of).

 

Over and over I've defined it. Others here seem to get it. Sorry that you don't.

 

>Sounds

>to me that YOU can't accept the HONEST reality that gays, like

>the human population as a whole, are comprised of many types

>of people.

 

I'm accepting of "many HONEST types of people"...not conformity, not stereotypes.

 

> Doesn't make me some

>kind of gay icon who is allowed to speak for all gays and have

>the right to define how other gays should be or how they

>should live their lives.

 

Nor am I some kind of "gay icon". I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I don't care if one or one million people believe the way I do. I simply don't believe people are being themselves when they've adopted the expressions, mannerisms, behaviors of a group and try to pass that off as some sort of "individuality" or "self-expression". When you're assimilated into a group there's nothing "individual" or "self-expressing" about it.

 

>I'd

>be willing to bet you don't wear a cardboard sign around your

>neck advertising the fact that you are a gay escort.

 

And you'd lose that bet! I went on the local ABC news affiliate to be interviewed about being an escort and got interviewed by a local paper about it! Everyone in my life knows that I'm gay and an escort.

 

>And what does it say about your mindset when you use terms

>such as Camp Queer, gay clone, gay facade, campy queens, etc?

 

I think it says that I'm comfortable enough that I don't have to try to fit in with the crowd to express myself as a gay man. It's enough to just be me. I just think some gay men work too hard at "being GAY"!

 

>And yet, you think others should deny themselves and try to be

>what you expect of them!!!!

 

Never said that! I'm not out to change the world.

 

>They let you be yourself, so

>extend the same respect and let them be themselves!

 

They tried for years to suck me into the cliched, stereotypical gay life. I had to not be afraid to express myself as an individual. It had nothing to do with them extending me any sort of respect. They wanted to label me, but I wouldn't stand still long enough.

 

>I'm sure

>they have attracted many wonderful people who are friends to

>them also. As far as fitting in with the crowd, you have done

>just that, imo, just not the crowd that you brand as the

>"stereotypical gay clone".

 

As I said before, my friends are individuals. Gay, straight, bi, drag queens, porn stars, escorts, whatever. We encourage each other to truly express our individuality and don't feel the need to express our homosexuality in everyday life through fantasy and role-playing.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest jeffOH]

>Even exaggerated mannerisms is an expression of who a person

>is.

 

Not necessarily, an "exaggeration" is an "overstatement" not an HONEST reflection of who a person is.

 

The kid with spiked green hair, the woman with 10 (count

>'em folks-10) piercing in her left ear, the skater boi with

>his dudes and awwwsomes and the MOs calling each other gurl

>and sister and taking on girl names as nick names are all

>expressions of that person's self--whether we happen to agree

>or not. If a person takes on a persona, who is to say that is

>any more phony or less real than the macho acting tough guy

>image that impresses a young gay boi watching an old James

>Dean movie and changes his persona for years?

 

These are all external exhibitions that demonstrate to me that someone is looking for some sort of validation for the "image" they're presenting to the world. It's not so much about originality or the self as it is a search to find themselves which starts on the inside, NOT on the outside.

 

>Haven't we all taken on expressions we thought were cool or

>liked after we heard someone else same them for the first

>time? Is that any different really, except maybe in degree?

 

Yep, it is different. Especially when the only time you use these expressions is when you're with others who're doing the same thing.

If you're truly comfortable being your "self", you don't change your expressions/mannerisms/behavior according to your environment.

 

 

>We all are trying to portray an image of who we think we are

>or want to be. JeffOh evidently has a self image, I guess,

>different that some drag queen or what he calls camp clones.

>But is his self image and how he portrays it any more real

>than the camp queens or the sister-act--clones or not?

 

In my mind, I'm still that kid on the playground jumping rope with the girls and getting called "sissy" and "queer" just because I didn't try to fit in. I didn't try then and I sure as hell am not going to now. I don't think of myself as some macho man. Other people seem to think I'm masculine. I suppose it's due to my deep voice, unshaven hairy body and the lack of the aforementioned "affected" campy persona.

 

>This is NOT an attack

>btw--as I've always appreciated your posts and agree with

>many, but I don't agree with you here.

 

Thanks Flower and I've appreciated yours. I've merely expressed my opinion which has been based upon years of observing behavior in all people. I've seen otherwise masculine guys new to the gay scene who seem to lose their identity by conforming to someone else's idea of what being a gay man is about. My point is, it's not necessary to adopt the expressions, mannerisms, behaviors of others to be accepted.

To me, a person doing this isn't very accepting of themselves.

 

>Self expression is very individualistic and I'm not sure that

>even in the case of the most effeminate camp Queen as JeffOh

>used the term

 

Nope, I never used the term "effeminate Camp Queen". There are effeminate men who aren't campy. I believe there's a distinction here.

 

>I recently told a very close straight friend I was gay--his

>exact words were: "WOW, I never saw that coming--you're

>kidding right?" He of course only knew my masculine "str8

>acting" persona I've had for too many years to count--while

>that might be the persona JeffOh would be more comfortable

>with

 

I'm not comfortable with anyone who's not being authentic. I find guys that try too hard to be "str8-acting" or "masculine" just as annoying as the Camp Queers.

 

>it was and is as phony as any "swishy prissy" camp queen

>being criticized here.

 

Well, this explains alot. If you were truly comfortable being yourself, you wouldn't have been acting all these years.

 

>On the other hand, I really have fun going out with my group

>of gay friends (admittedly in a more metropolitan area from

>where I live and practice) and just going with the

>flow--

 

Exactly what many gay men do..."go with the flow". Not exactly conducive to "self-expression", "individuality" or "diversity" when you're going along with the crowd. Doesn't require a whole lot of thought either.

 

>whether its a sister-act or not-- I find it both fun

>and liberating and since I enjoy it, find it hard to say it's

>not part of who I am.

 

Well, if you don't examine this about yourself, you're not likely to ever be able to say it's not a part of who you are.

 

> I dare say that if both Hawk and Jeff

>were in the restaurant while we were doing our thing (not loud

>obnoxious or bothering anyone btw) JeffOh sounds like he'd be

>offended or annoyed while Hawk sounds as if he'd live and let

>live.

 

Never offended, ANNOYED yes and somewhat sad that so many gay men believe that being Gay is about adopting expressions, mannerisms and behaviors that only serve to reinforce stereotypes that segregate them from the rest of the world.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest jeffOH]

>Even exaggerated mannerisms is an expression of who a person

>is.

 

Not necessarily, an "exaggeration" is an "overstatement" not an HONEST reflection of who a person is.

 

The kid with spiked green hair, the woman with 10 (count

>'em folks-10) piercing in her left ear, the skater boi with

>his dudes and awwwsomes and the MOs calling each other gurl

>and sister and taking on girl names as nick names are all

>expressions of that person's self--whether we happen to agree

>or not. If a person takes on a persona, who is to say that is

>any more phony or less real than the macho acting tough guy

>image that impresses a young gay boi watching an old James

>Dean movie and changes his persona for years?

 

These are all external exhibitions that demonstrate to me that someone is looking for some sort of validation for the "image" they're presenting to the world. It's not so much about originality or the self as it is a search to find themselves which starts on the inside, NOT on the outside.

 

>Haven't we all taken on expressions we thought were cool or

>liked after we heard someone else same them for the first

>time? Is that any different really, except maybe in degree?

 

Yep, it is different. Especially when the only time you use these expressions is when you're with others who're doing the same thing.

If you're truly comfortable being your "self", you don't change your expressions/mannerisms/behavior according to your environment.

 

 

>We all are trying to portray an image of who we think we are

>or want to be. JeffOh evidently has a self image, I guess,

>different that some drag queen or what he calls camp clones.

>But is his self image and how he portrays it any more real

>than the camp queens or the sister-act--clones or not?

 

In my mind, I'm still that kid on the playground jumping rope with the girls and getting called "sissy" and "queer" just because I didn't try to fit in. I didn't try then and I sure as hell am not going to now. I don't think of myself as some macho man. Other people seem to think I'm masculine. I suppose it's due to my deep voice, unshaven hairy body and the lack of the aforementioned "affected" campy persona.

 

>This is NOT an attack

>btw--as I've always appreciated your posts and agree with

>many, but I don't agree with you here.

 

Thanks Flower and I've appreciated yours. I've merely expressed my opinion which has been based upon years of observing behavior in all people. I've seen otherwise masculine guys new to the gay scene who seem to lose their identity by conforming to someone else's idea of what being a gay man is about. My point is, it's not necessary to adopt the expressions, mannerisms, behaviors of others to be accepted.

To me, a person doing this isn't very accepting of themselves.

 

>Self expression is very individualistic and I'm not sure that

>even in the case of the most effeminate camp Queen as JeffOh

>used the term

 

Nope, I never used the term "effeminate Camp Queen". There are effeminate men who aren't campy. I believe there's a distinction here.

 

>I recently told a very close straight friend I was gay--his

>exact words were: "WOW, I never saw that coming--you're

>kidding right?" He of course only knew my masculine "str8

>acting" persona I've had for too many years to count--while

>that might be the persona JeffOh would be more comfortable

>with

 

I'm not comfortable with anyone who's not being authentic. I find guys that try too hard to be "str8-acting" or "masculine" just as annoying as the Camp Queers.

 

>it was and is as phony as any "swishy prissy" camp queen

>being criticized here.

 

Well, this explains alot. If you were truly comfortable being yourself, you wouldn't have been acting all these years.

 

>On the other hand, I really have fun going out with my group

>of gay friends (admittedly in a more metropolitan area from

>where I live and practice) and just going with the

>flow--

 

Exactly what many gay men do..."go with the flow". Not exactly conducive to "self-expression", "individuality" or "diversity" when you're going along with the crowd. Doesn't require a whole lot of thought either.

 

>whether its a sister-act or not-- I find it both fun

>and liberating and since I enjoy it, find it hard to say it's

>not part of who I am.

 

Well, if you don't examine this about yourself, you're not likely to ever be able to say it's not a part of who you are.

 

> I dare say that if both Hawk and Jeff

>were in the restaurant while we were doing our thing (not loud

>obnoxious or bothering anyone btw) JeffOh sounds like he'd be

>offended or annoyed while Hawk sounds as if he'd live and let

>live.

 

Never offended, ANNOYED yes and somewhat sad that so many gay men believe that being Gay is about adopting expressions, mannerisms and behaviors that only serve to reinforce stereotypes that segregate them from the rest of the world.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Flower]

[font color="green"

]

Well, maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. Your opinions here, as always, are well written and reasoned, but we do differ in either our interpretation of what is being said or what it means to be true to thine ownself :+

 

I suppose if I was with gay friends and being silly just 'cause they were and not because I enjoyed it, then I'd agree with you.

 

Or if I was going out with these folks and going with the flow but didn't really like where it was going, but did it anyway 'cause that was what I thought being gay was all about, then I'd have to say you were right also.

 

But I only hang out with people I really enjoy--str8 or gay--and don't do things uncomfortable or that I don't want to do "just to fit in." Nor do I hang out with people that act in a manner that makes me uncomfortable or I find annoying or offense. I never have, nor have had to in order to establish my identity. That was true even though i was closeted for so many years. Aside from the fact I was living a fraud and hated being a closeted gay in the str8 world, I managed to be true to myself in most other aspects.

 

I do feel strongly, that even highly affected behavior of an individual is an expression of part of that person and part of who he is.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>It brings to mind my asking just what is the "gay" lifestyle

>that we are supposed to be living. I don't personally that

>there is such a thing and very much resent anyone trying to

>get me to live the "gay" lifestyle.

 

I'm curious about this. Who has been pressuring you to change your lifestyle? And how?

[Guest Bitchboy]

Wow,lots of intensity here, and it has been interesting reading. Like many others, I have strong opinions on this subject, and to be honest, I haven't always been consistent.

 

So many have said so much so well, that I can't belabor the subject, but I do want to add that for years I shied away from effeminate men; I didn't desire them as sexual objects and I didn't want anyone to think I was like that. However, all along, I wasn't sure I wasn't like them. I've had a much more comfortable and serene life since I've let go of the notion that I have to be one thing all the time. I don't think it's wrong to be affected by the environment in which I find myself. I sure as hell don't prance around at the gym; it wouldn't work. But I have nothing against an occasional campy ouburst when the occasion calls for it. It's hard enough being gay (although I find it much easier since I've been honest about it) that I don't feel comfortable judging the "lifestyle" others feel comfortable with.

[dick_nyc]

Just read the postings here and you will see who is pressuring us to change.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

Jeff, I believe and respect 100% that you are about as out and open an individual as anyone on this board can claim to be. But your speculations about the behavioral motives of people whom, by your own admission, you don't even associate with, are without basis. And your position is conflicted. On the one hand, you say that gays who camp it up are trying to fit in with "the crowd" or "the herd," and elsewhere you claim to have withstood "years" of pressure to conform to "the sterotypical gay life." But in another post you claim that campy behavior is only practiced by "the few who perpetuate these stereotypes" (elsewhere described as "so many"). Well, if only a few people are doing it, then how bad can the pressure to "fit in" be?

 

I have my own, less ominous theory about why some people gradually become more campy after they've been out for awhile. It's because camp is infectious. It doesn't "infect" everybody, to be sure, but neither does country music, nor did the roller blading craze. There is something playful and fun about campy behavior, and it's fun to make fun of campy behavior. That's how it often starts, in fact. Or somebody does drag on Halloween and is surprised at what a kick they get out of it. Gradually it starts happening a little more and a little more and soon being campy is just part of their personality, even if it's not a facet that all people see at all times. It's a habit that they've picked up. It has nothing to do with their being insecure, or of the herd mentality, and they aren't faking it. Since some of the people I associate with ARE campy and affected, I'm in a postion to observe that they are often extremely assertive and very confident in their opinions, not to mention some of the most "REAL" people I've met.

 

Another illustration of this: I've had a number of str8 male friends who liked having me around because I gave them a "safe space" in which to camp it up themselves. And did you ever see 'Priscilla, Queen of the Desert' and 'Too Wong Foo,' in which the drag queens liberate the small conservative towns with their sense of fabulousness (coupled with compassion)? The message -- and it is clearly pro-drag propaganda -- is that camp can set you free; it can dislodge old repressions, it can make you a little less rigid; it can be FUN.

 

None of this means that some people don't do camp -- formal or informal -- worse than, or better than, others. In any style or art form there are always some practitioners who are better at it than others. But just as you probably wouldn't be annoyed and saddened by someone who isn't an artist picking up a sketchpad and doodling every now and then, I see no reason to be annoyed, let alone saddened, by someone who dabbles in campy behavior every now and then. The ones who are good at it make it seem enjoyable -- not to everyone, but to enough people to draw a real constituency. Case in point: there are now drag kings and faux queens -- dykes and straight women who want to get in on drag because some gay men have made it seem fun. For the most part they're still not as good as the drag queens -- they don't pull of the same sense of edginess -- but maybe they just need more time. They do, however, illustrate my point that camp is infectious rather than a means of social control, which is almost what you seem to be suggesting it is.

 

Having said all this, I'm also not bothered nor annoyed by the use of the term "str8-acting," for reasons I explained in an earlier post. In fact, I think it is possible in this day and age to be too sensitive about sterotypes, and to use one's opposition to stereotypes as a proxy for policing behavior one dislikes, is annoyed by, or doesn't approve of. If people are still stereotyping all gays as being campy or effeminate or drinkers of mineral water (that's a reference to 'Heathers,' remember that scene? ), I'm sorry, but in 2003 they don't have the excuse to fall back on that that's all they see in the media. Especially young people: for eleven years, MTV has been relentlessly perpetuating a stereotype that gay men are all gorgeous, preppy, masculine, level-headed 22-year-olds (not dissimilar, one thinks, to whom ncm had in mind when he started this thread) that everyone gets along with. In films, the variety of gay characters who are complex, interesting people who survive to the end of the movie is greater than it's ever been, and they're not all queens, but some of them are, which I think is appropriate.

 

Besides, the term "str8-acting" is stereotyping str8 guys, not gay guys. And it sounded to me like ncm meant something a little more specific than merely "not being campy" (which describes pretty much every escort but the most fey twinks). Josh Hartnett and Woody Allen are both non-campy str8 guys, but would ncm be as happy to have a young Woody Allen-look-and-sound-alike show up at his door as a Josh Hartnett type?

 

The number one stereotype, at the end of the day, that people have about gay men is that we fuck each other in the ass, and the number two stereotype is that we suck each other's cocks. Both of which happen to be true of many, many gay men. That's what bothers homophobes; the other stuff is all window dressing. I say let people live their lives as they please without worrying about whether what they're doing happens to resemble, in part, the stereotype du jour. Unless the stereotype involves truly repugnant behavior, like child molestation, I think at this point we're better off saying "Actually, we don't all do that, but what if we did?"

 

Sorry to go on forever... :7

[Guest ncm2169]

<Josh Hartnett and Woody Allen are both non-campy str8 guys, but would ncm be as happy to have a young Woody Allen-look-and-sound-alike show up at his door as a Josh Hartnett type?>

 

Ummm, No! x(

 

But then, since Josh Hartnett grew up about 10 miles from where I live, and since I know his Mom, it's more likely that he'd show at my door than Woody. }(

 

(BTW, is there a record for the number of posts in a hijacked thread? :+ )

[Guest jeffOH]

Devon

 

I appreciate your comments and I spent nearly an hour addressing numerous things you said, then, when I went to post, my computer had gone offline and I lost it all. So, anyway...

 

I believe there are gay men who've turned being "gay" into some sort of game. Some ONLY camp it up in gay bars or in a particular gay setting such as Pride Events, circuit parties or in a group of their gay friends. Take them out of those gay specific settings and most drop the Gay Facade. Then, there are the HARDCORE "few" who live and breathe CAMP behavior and are highly visible and somehow become the predominant gay images perpetuating the stereotypes.

 

These caricatures are influential because of their exaggerated behavior. Young gay men who are emotionally vulnerable and desirous of acceptance into a group for the possibly the first time in their lives are often easily influenced. They adopt the expressions/mannerisms and Presto Chango...they're gay.

 

My best friends may not express themselves in this way, but I did hang out with some extremely campy gay men when I first came out. I did initially adopt some of the behavior, but I always felt like a fraud and quickly realized I didn't need to do that to be myself or accepted.

 

I have several casual friends/acquaintances who are quite campy in gay specific settings and then when you take them out of the gay bar or away from their campy gay friends, they drop the Gay Facade. Sure, it may be "liberating" or "fun" AT FIRST, perhaps in your first step or two out of the closet. But, turning CAMP BEHAVIOR into a lifestyle and becoming indistinguishable from the crowd you hang out with, in the long run has nothing to with demonstrating "individuality", "diversity", "confidence" or "assertiveness". RESISTING "going with the flow" or along with "herd" takes TRUE confidence, assertiveness and individuality.

 

I talk about the SAME issues in the SAME manner with my gay friends as I do my straight friends. I don't change my behavior/mannerisms whether I'm speaking to my Mom, my sister or with a group of escorts and porn stars. I hug and kiss my gay friends the same as I do my straight friends in WHATEVER the setting. Doing otherwise indicates to me says that you CARE that others may judge you so you alter your behavior to avoid having to deal with any potential fallout. So, "affected" expressions/behavior that you only use in certain situations where you feel "comfortable" has NOTHING to do with TRULY expressing your individuality, self-confidence or diversity.

 

I want people to LOVE me for the REAL ME, not a carefully constructed facade.

 

JEFF jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest ncm2169]

FYI. From gay.com:

 

< SEX TALK

 

by Simon Sheppard

 

Speaking of Sex with Straight Guys

 

Straight guys' penises are, according to the latest scientific research, a bit smaller than ours on average. Their fashion sense is stolen -- OK, "borrowed" -- from ours. Many of them can't dance. And, if straight women are to be believed, a number of het men could use coaching on sexual technique. Even so, there are plenty of queer guys who fantasize about having sex with 'em. Fetishize it. Work at it. Now, why is that?

 

There's no denying that, for a number of gay men, the idea of doing it with a straight guy is hot. My friend Will thinks the whole thing goes back to high school, at least for him. Remember all those het boys in the locker room we lusted after but knew we'd never have? Now that we're all grown up and think we might actually have a chance to get in their pants, those unfulfilled desires provide an extra tweak of lust. "There was my friend Mike," Will recalls. "When I'd come home from college, before he got married, he'd let me suck him. And," he says wistfully, "it was so big!"

 

Doctrinaire political types look askance at the idea of eroticizing straight guys. They say that to believe breeders are sexier, more desirable, than gay men smacks of internalized homophobia -- the same with sex ads that specify "straight-acting." But lust isn't all that simple; clearly, there are other factors at work.

 

There's the power of seduction, for one. Getting straight guys to do stuff they're not supposed to gives us a certain power over them: they may say they're upright heterosexuals, but we have the chops to prove that when they're not upright, they're as queer as the rest of us.

 

But at the heart of things, there's the concept of "masculinity." Now, it's perfectly obvious that not every het is as butch as Arnold; conservative pundit William F. Buckley, for instance, is as straight as they come, and no one would ever confuse him with rough trade. But there are, let's face it, some behavioral differences between many straight guys and many gay guys. And since we're attracted to men, the thinking goes, why not chase after men who are real men?

 

One guy I met online told me, "There's just something raw about straight guys ... the idea that they're not meticulous ... sometimes gay guys are too neat, too clean." After all, who wants to trick with someone who neatly folds his Abercrombie & Fitch duds before he hops into bed?

 

Curiously, gay men who want straight tricks usually want to suck them. Not to get fucked by them, not to top them in any significant way, but to get down on their gay knees and give pleasure to some straight stud. It's interesting on several levels, because though the one who sucks "services" the straight suckee, he also takes temporary control of the dick being sucked, and walks away with something of the straight guy's -- his load. So who's using whom?

 

Also, getting sucked is pretty damn gender-neutral. With his eyes closed, can a man really tell if it's a man or a woman doing it? Like I said, interesting ...

 

I asked another online acquaintance, who cruises using a screen name that offers oral sex for straight men, just what he finds so appealing about playing with hets. "They're always horny as hell and you don't have to care for them when they are sick," he said. "They don't stay for breakfast. And I'll never have to wash their underwear."

 

Doesn't that just about say it all? >

 

 

Have at it, gentleman. :+