US and Canada: What a difference!

[Boston Guy]

Unbelievable as it may seem, gay marriage just may be the issue that saves the government in Canada. It's even more amazing when compared to George Bush and his proposed constitutional amendment.

 

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/06/060704canElect.htm

 

BG

[Will]

That's not only wonderful -- and Canada is so close by! -- it's the best possible example of what I was talking about yesterday in my post to Anton about cultural differences. Here are two largely English-speaking countries in North America sharing a common border thousands of miles long, practically unlimited free trade, and all the rest. But look at the differences in their attitudes towards their populations on the edge in matters of health-care (especially prescription drugs) and individual rights (as in gay marriage). That's a bigger cultural difference, by far, than whether or not to count the money.

 

And thanks for the 365gay URL. I didn't know about it.

[Boston Guy]

>And thanks for the 365gay URL. I didn't know about it.

 

You're welcome. I usually check them out at least once a day. They have several updates across each day and are often first with breaking gay-related news.

 

BG

[eastbayguy]

>You're welcome. I usually check them out at least once a day.

> They have several updates across each day and are often first

>with breaking gay-related news.

 

Did you stumble across the article on 365gay.com about the discrimination in some fast food joint? The article was excellent, and sure got me thinking. I know that anyone who writes for a gay web site must have a strongly gay positive view. But, one does wonder about the depth of support for our community these days. Even with all the anti-gay machinations of the right wing these days, support really does seem to be growing.

 

I just loved one of the articles on 365gay where they compared Mitt Romney to George Wallace. Priceless!

 

Sure was a day brightener for me on this particular Monday.

 

--EBG

[VaHawk]

Except for English as a common language, and even that will be a moot point soon, one could use the same criteria to make a comparison to our Southern neighbor, Mexico. But I don't see any RAVES about the USA in comparison to Mexico!

 

Maybe Canada is so "near" to you, but how does that make it nearer than Mexico to people in Louisiana, Texas, Florida, New Mexico, Arizona, California and countless other states in the USA?

 

Yeah, I guess you LOVE Canada SO MUCH, that you have given up your USA citizenship to become a Canadian citzen? NO, then WHY NOT? as you seem to be so ENAMORED with the place?

[Boston Guy]

I posted a link to an article that I thought was interesting because:

 

1) I think it's ironic that gay marriage -- not really a mainstream issue in any country -- might be the saving grace for the current Canadian government.

 

2) I think it's even more ironic because some conservatives have been advising the Bush campaign to play up gay marriage and Bush's proposed constitutional amendment because they see it as a winning issue for them. The press reported three days ago that Republican strategists are increasingly seeing Iraq as a losing issue for them and are advocating moving toward social issues for the campaign.

 

So we have two large nations, often thought of as having similar cultures, with a somewhat unusual issue playing out in mainstream national politics at the same time in both countries, with the parties in government in the two countries on opposites sides of the issue.

 

I found that interesting and ironic. You must have missed that.

 

Where the other stuff came from in your post is beyond me. It certainly didn't seem to have much to do with the contents of the article that the link referenced. Instead, actually, your post seemed to be just one more in that constant stream of posts that we see here whose sole point seems to be to try to provoke and/or anger other poster. Too bad; you could have actually commented on the article or the issue itself instead of issuing another ad hominem attack. Pity.

 

BG

[VaHawk]

>So we have two large nations, often thought of as having

>similar cultures, with a somewhat unusual issue playing out in

>mainstream national politics at the same time in both

>countries, with the parties in government in the two countries

>on opposites sides of the issue.

 

See, that is your misconception, in thinking that Canada and the United States have similar cultures! WHY?, because the major language is English and both countries were settled by English settlers?

 

Canada was first settled by the French, and to this day, there is advocation of the separation of French settled Quebec from the rest of Canada. The USA was settled by English and French and Spanish settlers, and, in fact, the oldest USA settlement was St. Augustine Florida by the Spanish, so from the get go, the USA was under a more varied influence than Canada!

 

Add to that the great influx of Latino, Catholic immigrants, both legal and illegal from Latin America in the past 100 years, which Canada has not experienced, at least not to the degree of the USA.

 

Not to even venture into the open door policies of immigration between the two countries or the fact that Canada exists only at the whim of Great Britain as part of the Commonwealth versus the USA who exists as an independent nation, because of defiance and a war of independence against Great Britain!

 

POINT being that comparing the culture of Canada as being similar to the USA is no more VALID than comparing the culture of Mexico to being similar to the USA!

 

>Too bad; you could have

>actually commented on the article or the issue itself instead

>of issuing another ad hominem attack. Pity.

 

My point was not to comment upon yet ANOTHER article criticizing and CONDEMINING the USA, based solely on the issue of gay marriage, which is no more of a national law in Canada than it is so far in the USA!

 

The ONLY pity, I see, is the NEED of gay Americans to slam the USA, on every front, regardless of the fact, that the countries they are PRAISING offer no more national gay rights than the USA! And if they are SO ENAMORED of these other countries of ENLIGHTENMENT, then WHY don't they just MOVE?? So far, none of them can come up with an answer - just accusations of attack and expressions of pity for all us clueless gay Americans!

[Boston Guy]

VAHawk:

 

First, you clearly didn't read the article. Not only did it not 'criticize and condemn' the US, it didn't even mention the US. Before you criticize something, you really ought to take the time to read it first, don't you think?

 

Second, I didn't criticize the US in my post. I didn't even criticize George Bush, although I certainly could have: it's no secret that I think a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage is a terrible idea for any number of reasons, not least because it sets a precedent for using the US constitution as a vehicle for taking rights away from a minority group.

 

Third, you somehow seem to have the misguided opinion that I am somehow not quite loyal or 'enamored' of America. Let me set your mind at ease: as a very patriotic American who just happens to love his country very much, I care very deeply what happens to it. The last time I checked, criticizing whatever administration is in power falls well within the freedom of speech guaranteed to all of us Americans and is not -- as you seem wont to imply -- the same as criticizing America itself (something also protected by our freedom of speech). It's precisely because I love America so much that I find the actions of the Bush administration so dreadful.

 

Finally, and I only point this out because of the semi-hysterical, extremly judgmental tone of both of your posts, you are clearly misinformed when it comes to information about the great nation to our north.

 

First, I can happily assure you that Canada is in no danger of going out of business or being otherwise dissolved by Great Britain. While Canada is indeed a proud member of the Commonwealth, she is also a fully independent nation, in charge of her own affairs.

 

Next, I think you might be surprised were you to visit Canada. On the streets of any major city in Canada (and, in fact, most cities of any size), you will find a happy population encompassing many, many different ethnic groups. While Canada pursues a policy of 'multiculturalism' (as opposed to the US model of the 'melting pot'), both societies have succeed in integrating large numbers of people from many different ethnic backgrounds.

 

Finally, I must take issue when you say that "comparing the culture of Canada as being similar to the USA is no more valid than comparing the culture of Mexico to being similar to the USA!". Frankly, your statement reeks of lack of experience and naivety. I cannot imagine that you could hold such a view after having spent any considerable period of time in both Canada and Mexico.

 

Certainly, all three countries share some characteristics, not least of which is a position on the same continent. However, the great similarities between the US and Canadian culture far outweigh the similarities that exist between the US and Mexico. Canada and the US are both proud countries, each possessing of a distinct, complex culture. But to deny the very many similarities that exist between the cultures of the US and Canada is just plain foolish.

 

BG

[VaHawk]

I read the article, and yes, it specifically did not criticize the USA, but my original response was to Will who used it to criticize the USA in comparison to the US, based on the article.

 

"Finally, I must take issue when you say that "comparing the culture of Canada as being similar to the USA is no more valid than comparing the culture of Mexico to being similar to the USA!". Frankly, your statement reeks of lack of experience and naivety. I cannot imagine that you could hold such a view after having spent any considerable period of time in both Canada and Mexico."

 

I have been to Canada many times, and I have been to Mexico a few times, but less so than Canada. I have to say, that based on my experiences, that I find Canadian culture no more relevant to the US than Mexican culture. I find Canadian culture to be similar to the Northeastern USA, but that is no more similar than I find the Mexican culture to be to the Southwestern USA!

 

IMO, as such, Canadian culture has no more application to the USA than Mexican culture does! In other words, the USA encompasses similarites of both, but is unique in itself, which was my point!

[Trixie]

Now you boys... stop your fussing. There's no good trying to compare Canada to the US to Mexico... the lines are too blurred. Despite the fact that there's a great big fence across one border, and not the other, there are countless gradations as one samples the cultures from north to south. The US is not finished yet, it is still a nation taking stock of itself, changing, coming into it's own. It may be that one day significant portions of our country will legally speak spanish... or cantonese, for that matter. Changes as thus are simply changes. They have no moral bearing.

What is more particular to this argument is this: In Canada, there is a legal trend towards a "Mind Your Own Business" stance in affairs between two people. While in Mexico, there is a social "mind your own business" stance... while they're not going to take to the streets, mexicans are rather liberal as to what happens behind closed doors. Culturally they hold a catholic position. In Reality, do what you like, just don't make waves.

But here, right now in the US, we have a president who wants to limit the rights of a group of citizens by changing the constitution. He does not want to mind his own business. He wants to get involved in the intimate business of other people.

He has a lot of people backing him. There are alot of people against his ideas too.

America, God bless It, has always been a country that wants to protect the rights of individuals, yet wants to tell those individuals how to live. We are a nation caught in a paradox: We seek Perfect Liberty, but who is to judge what is Perfect?

 

La Trix

[fedssocr1]

Before we praise Canada too much I think that while you find many people support the idea of gay marriage, there is also a very large portion of the population that opposes it; particularly in the prairie provinces people are rather culturally conservative. In the big cities in Ontario and Quebec as well as BC the population is more socially liberal.

 

I was just in Montreal for a week. The Canadians will be holding parliamentary elections at the end of the month and the big issues appear to be taxes and the health care system which many people feel is very much broken. Gay marriage is really not much on the radar screen of most people.

 

I have to admit I have never been to Mexico but have visited Canada on many occasions. Much to the chagrine of many Canadians I'd have to say that culturally our two countries are very very similar. Pop culture certainly overlaps a great deal from TV to music to movies. Generally speaking we share a common language,Quebec City notwithstanding. I think the contrasts in the way our two countries have evolved is quite striking.

 

As for why those of us who love Canada haven't become Canadian citizens, it's not at all easy to become a Canadian citizen. I have looked into it and there are many barriers and lots of criteria they use which keep most people out.