In defence of Mr. Dunne

[Guest Thunderbuns]

Well here goes - the promised thread on Mr. Dunne.

 

I like the man - I truly do. So it came as a surprise to me that the two posters who replied to my post about his "team" involvement, found him dispicable.

 

Why do I like him? Several reasons........ First and foremost, he is a great gossip. If anyone here tries to tell me they don't enjoy a good bit of gossip, sorry, but I just won't believe them.

 

I think his books are well written. I like his choice of words, his bluntness and marvel at his encylopedic memory. I have often wondered why he chooses to present most of his reportage in the form of a novel. Perhaps it is a way of dodging lawsuits in a society that would rather phone their lawyer than their doctor. Or perhaps he feels it gives him a greater freedom of expression which ultimately makes the books more readable. Whatever - I think all of his books make "good reads".

 

I think he is a man who was truly outraged by the slap on the wrist given by the courts, to the murderer of his dauhter. This intensified his interest in the American criminal justice system and explains why most of his reportage is focused on murder trials. He prefers to zero in on the trials of the very wealthy. I feel the reason that they are his main focus is because he feels (and rightly so IMO) that money and privilage can, in America today, subvert the natural process of justice. Never was it more obvious than the travesty that occured in LA during the Simpson trial.

 

The same thing happened with the Skakel family. Their money, position and connections managed to sweep the Moxley murder under the carpet for a quarter of a century. Please do not forget that if it were not for Dunne rekindling the flame by getting Mark Furhman interested in the case and eventually Furhman writing "Murder in Greenwich" the killer of Martha Moxley would still be enjoying his life of privilage and Dorothy Moxley would never see justice done in her lifetime.

 

Some of our members have called him self-promoting! Of course he is. Is this a fault? NO - not in my book. Name one successful person who earns their living by writing, acting, singing, or being a TV

personality who isn't self-promoting. It goes with the territory. And do we even have to mention the self-promotional abilities of all our favorite politicians? It's just a fact of life in our society. We all do it. Even you... perhaps not on a national scale, but I'd bet that at work you are quite adept at self-promoting yourself to your bosses.

 

Our very own loveable, adorable and sexy Rick Munroe is one of the best examples of a self-promoter. Do we vilify him for being that way? NO. We tell him how witty he is and how much we enjoy his posts!

 

When on Larry King live reporting on the Skakel verdict, he mentioned that he was present at the wedding of Bobby and Ethel K's wedding which was also attended by Michael. I don't think he went into the following detail on LKL but in Vanity Fair he was quite clear that he was not there as an invited guest, but as a date of a girl who was an invited guest. Quite a differance there. And I don't think he mentioned the Kennedy wedding for any reason other than to remark how strange it was that their paths (his and Michael's) had crossed again all these years later. I might be wrong, but that's the way I see it.

 

You say he has turned his "(alleged)" desire to help victims into a way to make a buck for himself. In the first place, to use the word "alleged" and put it in brackets, is just a cheap shot. I don't think there is anything alleged about it. Secondly, I don't think his primary motive is to help the victims. His primary motive, as I see it, is to expose character flaws that many rich people have that lead them to think they can get away with anything just because they have the bucks - and in addition to expose the inadeqacies of the Criminal Justice System.

 

Does he make money by so doing? Of course he does and why shouldn't he? Would you respect him more if he did it for free and lived on welfare? Why does his being successful bring out such anger in people?

There is nothing crass or in bad taste about him or his success.

 

I feel that people who don't like him should re-examine their motives. Mr. Dunne came from a life of privilage himself. His years in Hollywood and his subsequent success as a writer have made him a wealthy man. He moves in circles that presumably none of us do or can. I know many will say "not want to". Be that as it may - your choice and only you know if you are really telling the truth.

 

I do know however, that if I was to attend a NY dinner party and could choose who I would sit next to, he would be my first choice. And I also know I would have a very entertaining evening.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest Les]

>who I would sit next to

 

As Alice Longworth used to say " If you have nothing nice to say...

come sit by me."

I too enjoy reading and listening to Mr. Dunne...and though he was married with children and frequently denies it... I think he's an old queen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :7

[BgMstr4u]

Thank you, Thunder, for this wonderful and insightful look at Dominick Dunne. I have enjoyed reading his work for a long, long time, and rejoiced when he enlarged his scope from society to crime. He brings an observant eye and an incisive wit to the dickensian world of american justice, and I love him for it.

[ad rian]

>I

>have often wondered why he chooses to present most of his

>reportage in the form of a novel. Perhaps it is a way of

>dodging lawsuits in a society that would rather phone their

>lawyer than their doctor.

 

I don't much care for the post-Watergate "journalism" of unnamed sources and unchecked leaks. It is precisely that lack of professionalism that allows a talentless screen writer to masquerade as a journalist and to hell with civil liberties and the rights of the the innocent and falsely accused. Let's hear it for the lynch mob; it's just so great for t.v. ratings!

 

>I think he is a man who was truly outraged by the slap on

>the wrist given by the courts, to the murderer of his

>dauhter.

 

I for one think that this whole victims' rights movement of which he is a prime mover has gone too far. Victims of crime have a right to our sympathy, a court-appointed grief counsellor, and a box of tissues, they do not have a right to subvert and pervert our system of justice!

 

>Please do not

>forget that if it were not for Dunne rekindling the flame by

>getting Mark Furhman interested in the case and eventually

>Furhman writing "Murder in Greenwich" the killer of Martha

>Moxley would still be enjoying his life of privilage and

>Dorothy Moxley would never see justice done in her lifetime.

 

Please do not forget that Mark Furhman was a proven racist. I judge a man by the company he keeps. If Furhman and Dunn are an item, let them both be damned.

 

>Secondly, I don't think his primary motive is to help

>the victims. His primary motive, as I see it, is to expose

>character flaws that many rich people have that lead them to

>think they can get away with anything just because they have

>the bucks - and in addition to expose the inadeqacies of the

>Criminal Justice System.

 

His primary motive is a transparent attempt to make others feel his own grief. The man obviously needs to be evangelized and to learn the virtue of forgiveness and the inner peace that comes from that. Vengeance is a waste of time and talent.

[Guest unlimited_horizons2002]

maybe he reads this and gives you a call....... you can do him for free , you might hear a lot about other queens, men and women. enjoy.}>

[Guest ncm2169]

Ad, you took many of the words right out of my mouth...more about that later. First, Thunder, I salute you on an impressive summary of Dunne...you've done your homework. You do a very creditable job of being his advocate, and of parrying many of my earlier thrusts, eg. his right to make money in a manner of his choosing (this being America). Of course, I also have the right to characterize his choice as "crass", a judgment by which I stand. I will also readily concede that he serves a useful and necessary purpose as a "scold" for our criminal justice system, the perfect scold here being someone who both hails from privilege and nails the system for being susceptible to scamming by the privileged; hell, I'll even go further in that regard...if he didn't exist, we'd have to invent him. So, I'm not saying the guy's a total scumbag. ;-)

 

As for gossip, who doesn't (even secretly) love it? :+ If I'd been around 90 years ago, I would have found a way to have dinner with Alice Longworth. Dinner with Dunne would be a poor substitute, but I wouldn't turn down the opportunity.

 

But his well-honed penchant for gossip poisons his aspirations as a serious commentator on the criminal justice system, just as his passion for avenging his daughter's murder by definition disqualifies him from being a dispassionate observer.

 

Throw in Ad's right-on observations about obsessed people (not to mention Rupert Murdoch) hijacking our criminal justice system and turning it into a media circus, and there's the bullseye for my beef with Dunne. He's become part of the circus.

 

Gossip is one thing. Serious commentary and constructive criticism of American institutions is another. When someone who purports to be serious becomes Robin Leach playing tour guide in "Scandals of the Rich and Famous", he's part of the problem and not part of the solution.

[Guest alanm]

There is no defending Mr. Dunne. His appearances on TV are a laugh;

Dunne drops a famous name every 10 seconds. Dunne is a "walker" who gossips at lunch with rich society women and then gossips about it on Larry King with 1% of the wit of Truman Capote. His novels are not

well written or well ploted. I am sorry that his daughter was killed,

but, as mentioned, Dunne can not be objective about other murder cases. I could care less whether he is gay, but hope he is not because I do not want to be associated with the man in any way.

 

As to Rick Munroe promoting himself on this site, he does it with a lot of style and is sometimes not afraid to take a strong position on very controversial subject (Truth Teller, for example.) I wish more

escorts posted on this site. Rick has shown how can do it, have fun

and have a real impact.

[Houston Bonfires]

Thunderbuns:

 

I have always enjoyed Mr. Dunnes wit and way with words. I find him fascinating and enlightened. I also find him on occasion bitchy and narrow-minded but on all occasions I grant him some measure of latitude in the name of grief. His grief. I cannot imagine how changed or affected one could be by the murder of a child but I do not question it and either because of his grief or in spite of his grief I find he always has something worthwhile to say to me.

 

H B

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>I don't much care for the post-Watergate "journalism" of

>unnamed sources and unchecked leaks. It is precisely that

>lack of professionalism that allows a talentless screen

>writer to masquerade as a journalist and to hell with civil

>liberties and the rights of the the innocent and falsely

>accused. Let's hear it for the lynch mob; it's just so

>great for t.v. ratings!

 

If Dunne indulged in what you imply, he would be in court on a daily basis - and not as a reporter.

 

>I for one think that this whole victims' rights movement of

>which he is a prime mover has gone too far. Victims of

>crime have a right to our sympathy, a court-appointed grief

>counsellor, and a box of tissues, they do not have a right

>to subvert and pervert our system of justice!

 

And how, pray tell, are they doing this? They have a right to justice, forget the Kleenex - they can afford to buy their own. What is happening in todays court system is the perpetrators are receiving more rights than the victim. That is transparently wrong!

 

>>Please do not

>>forget that if it were not for Dunne rekindling the flame by

>>getting Mark Furhman interested in the case and eventually

>>Furhman writing "Murder in Greenwich" the killer of Martha

>>Moxley would still be enjoying his life of privilage and

>>Dorothy Moxley would never see justice done in her lifetime.

 

>Please do not forget that Mark Furhman was a proven racist.

>I judge a man by the company he keeps. If Furhman and Dunn

>are an item, let them both be damned.

 

Now that just makes no sense at all. Just because Furhman used the word nigger does not necessarily make him a racist. And even if he is one, that fact does not take away from his abilities as a detective. It's really easy to fall back on trite phrases such as "I judge a man by the company he keeps". In this instance it is meaningless. Dunne felt that the evidence contained in a report leaked to him, which had originally been commissioned by the Skakel father, proved that son Michael was guilty. Dunne then encouraged Furhman to investigate further and he (Furhman) came to the same conclusion. Without the dedication of these two men, Michael Skakel would have probably spent today sailing off Martha's Vineyard and drinking at the yacht club. Their collaberation is directly responsible for justice being done here. If that is reason for them both to be damned, it sure escapes me.

 

>>Secondly, I don't think his primary motive is to help

>>the victims. His primary motive, as I see it, is to expose

>>character flaws that many rich people have that lead them to

>>think they can get away with anything just because they have

>>the bucks - and in addition to expose the inadeqacies of the

>>Criminal Justice System.

>

>His primary motive is a transparent attempt to make others

>feel his own grief.

 

Bull - his daughter was murdered in '83 (I think). He grieving is over and done with. What still remains is his anger at a court system that would allow the killer to be free after a minimal sentence. I think he was out walking the streets in less than 2 years. I might be slightly off here, but it was a very short period of time.

 

>The man obviously needs to be evangelized and to learn the virtue of >forgiveness and the inner peace that comes from that. Vengeance is >a waste of time and talent.

 

He knows he can't get vengenace. What he can get and is determined to achieve is to put a stop to the financially privilged benefiting from a different level of justice than you and I. In this regard, I take my hat off to him.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>As to Rick Munroe promoting himself on this site, he does it

>with a lot of style and is sometimes not afraid to take a

>strong position on very controversial subject (Truth Teller,

>for example.) I wish more

>escorts posted on this site. Rick has shown how can do it,

>have fun

>and have a real impact.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you re Rick. But you're missing my point, which was - why is it OK for Rick to promote himself but when it is done by someone you dislike - such as Dunne - it suddenly becomes NOT allright? Double standard at work here!

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>So, I'm not saying the guy's a total scumbag. ;-)

 

>But his well-honed penchant for gossip poisons his

>aspirations as a serious commentator on the criminal justice

>system, just as his passion for avenging his daughter's

>murder by definition disqualifies him from being a

>dispassionate observer.

 

You're confusing two of Dunne's functions here. His tendancy towards gossip is part of his "entertainment" side. Whether you view it as entertainment or not is not the issue here but it happens to be how he earns a part of his living.

 

As for avenging his daughter's death - that is not his aim. He is trying to get the Criminal Justice System back on track so that people of wealth and privilage will not have an unfair advantage over others.

 

>Gossip is one thing. Serious commentary and constructive

>criticism of American institutions is another. When someone

>who purports to be serious becomes Robin Leach playing tour

>guide in "Scandals of the Rich and Famous", he's part of the

>problem and not part of the solution.

 

I don't see it that way - Robin Leach is a joke without any credentials. Dunne has many credentials and in addition to his gossip reporting, and his crime reporting, he is an excellent essayist. I would refer you to his "Mansions of Limbo", still in print.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest alanm]

I always respect your opinion, so apologize for being so strong in my last posting. All that you say is up for debate, with one person's

view being as good as anyone else's.

 

The one point I totally disagree with you on is the quality of Dunne's

novels. They are not well written in any sense of the term that I know. Yes, his essays are fine. But, the novels are horrible, a disgrace really when compared to first rate writing of 100 other novelist whom I could name.

 

Rick Munroe's defense of Truth Teller on this MC was a controversial

position that must have lost him some calls. I totally disagreed with his take on Truth Teller, but admired his passion in posting for

Truth Teller. Dunne's passion in speaking out about justice in light of the mild sentence his daughter's murder received took much more courage. But, he approaches every case with his mind already made up that the defendant is guilty. He is a joke to me and all my friends.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>I always respect your opinion, so apologize for being so

>strong in my last posting. All that you say is up for

>debate, with one person's view being as good as anyone else's.

 

No need to apologize - after a year or so on this board, we all have skins like rhinos. :-)

 

>The one point I totally disagree with you on is the quality

>of Dunne's novels. They are not well written in any sense of the >term that I know.

 

Well, you're probably right. A Pulitzer is probably not in the works. But I find them entertaining. Or as I said previously "a good read" We all read for different reasons. Sometimes I want to be inspired. Sometime I want to be informed - and sometimes I just want to be entertained. I like the directness of his prose and his turn of phrase. Like your statement in your opening paragraph - it's all up for debate.

 

>Dunne's passion in speaking out about justice in light of the mild >sentence his daughter's murder received took much more courage.

 

I think it was probably tinged with outrage as much as anything.

 

>But he approaches every case with his mind already made up that the >defendant is guilty.

 

If he does, he is probably not alone in that regard. I'm often guilty of the same thing myself. But the funny thing is that he's usually proven to be correct in his rush to judgement.

 

>He is a joke to me and all my friends.

 

But even when you're laughing, if you were being 100% honest with yourselves - you'd have to admit that he has done a lot of good. Ask Dorothy Moxley.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest ncm2169]

Sorry, Thunder, but I remain firmly in the detractor's camp here. I've pretty much had my say in previous posts, but I will echo a couple of the earlier comments in this thread, eg., entertainment-wise, he doesn't even qualify as a third-rate Capote, and I really don't think the guy has ever seen a prosecutor's charge he hasn't agreed with. So, we'll agree to disagree on Dunne. :-)

 

I guess we see the world differently here. You seem to think that perpetrators are constantly getting away with murder, literally or figuratively, and I do not. All things being equal (which, of course, they never are), I think the criminal justice scales are pretty well balanced in this country. Sometimes they're tipped in favor of a perpetrator, if power and privilege are a factor, and I earlier conceded that if Dunne didn't exist we'd have to invent him as a necessary scold.

 

I worry far more, however, about the power the government has and about the potential for its abuse (the inept Greenwich, CT police department excepted). Throw in a healthy dose of media circus/mob justice, and you've got a positively scary and often lethal combination.

 

Just ask Martha Stewart. I'll stipulate right here that, if she either lied to the Feds and/or acted on inside info, I hope the bitch is toast. The key word in that last sentence was "if".

 

We have a criminal justice PROCESS in this country. Yes, perhaps Rushton Skakel can try pervert it with his money. I'm more concerned when headline grabbing Congressmen (Congresspersons?) hold "hearings" which in their own way also pervert that process, or when the Administration's political timetable influences prosecutors' actions, or when media entertainers (as distinguished from serious commentators/observers) hound a Congressman (Gary Condit) out of office, or when local prosecutors choose to "make a name" for themselves by aggressively and selectively targeting certain actions/behavior, or when local police departments plant drugs on someone before they make an arrest.

 

Thunder, those perversions of the criminal justice system by the government and media are REAL. The damage that all the Rushton Skakels in all the country clubs in this country can do pales by comparison to what a handful of unethical/mischievous/corrupt police or prosecutors can accomplish.

 

That's my take on it, man. :-)

 

And NO, I'm NOT trying to hijack this thread to a discussion of that cunt Martha Stewart! x(

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>Sorry, Thunder, but I remain firmly in the detractor's camp

>here. I've pretty much had my say in previous posts, but I

>will echo a couple of the earlier comments in this thread,

>eg., entertainment-wise, he doesn't even qualify as a

>third-rate Capote, and I really don't think the guy has ever

>seen a prosecutor's charge he hasn't agreed with. So, we'll

>agree to disagree on Dunne. :-)

 

>I guess we see the world differently here. You seem to

>think that perpetrators are constantly getting away with

>murder, literally or figuratively, and I do not.

 

Sorry if that's the impression I gave you but it's not the case. The only point I was making was that if the accused's family has millions to spend on a defense, they have a distinct advantage over an individual of modest means, and that should not be the case. Look at OJ, look at the Kennedy-Smith rape trial, just to name two.

 

I think this is what Dunne is against and tries by his reportage to level the playing field.

 

 

>All things being equal (which, of course, they never are), I think >the criminal justice scales are pretty well balanced in this

>country. Sometimes they're tipped in favor of a

>perpetrator, if power and privilege are a factor, and I

>earlier conceded that if Dunne didn't exist we'd have to

>invent him as a necessary scold.

 

There you are - basically agreeing with the main point of my defence of Dunne.

 

>We have a criminal justice PROCESS in this country. Yes,

>perhaps Rushton Skakel can try pervert it with his money.

>I'm more concerned when headline grabbing Congressmen

>(Congresspersons?) hold "hearings" which in their own way

>also pervert that process, or when the Administration's

>political timetable influences prosecutors' actions,

 

I never have understood why, in the USA, DAs are elected. This leaves the doors wide open for personal political agendas that may also subvert justice.

 

>media entertainers (as distinguished from serious

>commentators/observers) hound a Congressman (Gary Condit)

>out of office,

 

Condit wasn't "hounded" out of office. His electorate dumped him when they finally realised just how sleazy their man was. Ccondit really has no one to blame but himself.

 

>Thunder, those perversions of the criminal justice system by

>the government and media are REAL. The damage that all the

>Rushton Skakels in all the country clubs in this country can

>do pales by comparison to what a handful of unethical/mischievous/corrupt police or prosecutors can

>accomplish.

 

I totally agree with you - so what can be done to fix it?

 

>And NO, I'm NOT trying to hijack this thread to a discussion

>of that cunt Martha Stewart!

 

I certainly agree that she is a cunt - although a rather astute one. Last time I checked, my net worth wasn't in the 100s of millions - or even close! I would love to see her chopped up into her own cabbage salad. So......... start that thread. We could probably have some fun with it!

 

Thunderbuns