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"Them!"


Trixie
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Well, the pan-phobic WASPS of the Republican party found over the last four years that starting a crusade against gays in this country wasn't as easy as they first imagined. 'Tho they haven't given up, they have shifted their attention to the only social pariah possibly lower than the homosexual: the undocumented worker. Overnight, suddenly the conservative right is simply frothing at the mouth over the "immigration" issue.

 

People are wringing their hands and beating their breasts over these horrible, dangerous people. God knows they've come here for no good, no good at all!

 

The realty of the matter is that the men and women who risk everything to come here do so to EARN a better life. They're not here seeking a free ride, or to turn "America into a taco truck" as one Minuteman put it. The souls that come here, the Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadoreans, etc. are some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere. They are also are closest neighbors, (besides Canada).

They come here, to this country of tremendous excess, with not much more than Hope, strength, and the willingness to do anything they can to better their lives, and the lives of their families. I dare any one of you out there to spend even a month living in the conditions that they endure in their homelands, and tell me if you wouldn't try to do the same thing.

 

And now, it would seem we are declaring war on these people. It literally makes me cry in shame of my country.

 

May First, this coming Monday, is a day of protest and recognition of the undocumented immigrant. There has been a call for a national strike, which I am observing. If you cannot, or would rather not choose to not work May 1, you could show your suport for the people who clean your houses, mow your lawns, empty your wastebaskets, wash the dishes at your favorite restaurant, pick your strawberries, etc. by wearing a white shirt or white armband on May 1. Let them know that you care, and you consider their lives as valuable and important as any "good citizen" in this nation. There is no "Them", there is only us.

 

Thanks for listening, my friends!

 

Trix

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Guest zipperzone

Trix:

 

I understand all the points you make in your post and agree with them in principle. But let me ask you just one question.

 

What is a country to do that has a policy and laws regarding the proper proceedure for applying for immigrant status? Throw them out the window and open the floodgates?

 

What would you propose to be a fair solution?

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Guest Merlin

Some illegals come to work, but many also come to commit crime and to receive welfare and othere freebies. But even those who work do great damage to our country. Unfortunately the poor and workers of America have no one to speak for them. Liberals and Democrats pretent to care about the poor, but they also want millions of more poor to invade the country each year. They pretend to care about low wages and bemoan that ordinary workers don't share in the increased prosperity, but they want millions more each year who will compete with Americans and work for the lower and lower and lower wages. They pretend to care about the widening Gap between rich and poor, but they insist on massive invasions of even poorer. They pretend to care about the environment, but insist on millions of more each year to burn fuel, create garbage and pollution--enough at the present rate to create a new Los Angeles very five years. They pretend to care about poor health care for the poor but want Americas resources diverted to illegals. America has no problem which is not caused by or aggravated by our masssive immigration.

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RE: "Them!"

 

Wanna bet that most (OK, all) of the hot, huge-dicked escorts with foreign accents that Merlin drools over or hires aren't here on a valid work visa? I think it's just too rich for words when someone who eagerly violates the laws on prostitution in 49 of the 50 states objects when others violate the law to find a job that allows them to survive! There's a special place reserved for all eternity for such hypocrites in that red-hot resort by the sea of burning asphalt, where the waiters all have horns and tails and the cocktails are all sulfuric!

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RE: "Them!"

 

Undocumented workers are not pets, they are people, just like you and I. Again, you used the word "Them" as if they were something other, which belies the inherent racism and xenophobia in the wisecracking, arrogant stance you are taking.

 

 

La Trix

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Guest zipperzone

RE: "Them!"

 

>Undocumented workers are not pets, they are people, just like

>you and I. Again, you used the word "Them" as if they were

>something other, which belies the inherent racism and

>xenophobia in the wisecracking, arrogant stance you are

>taking.

>

>

>La Trix

Trix: Would you please answer my question(s) as asked in my reply to your original post. I am truly interested in your perceived solution.

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Guest Merlin

RE: "Them!"

 

Trix, before you criticize me you need to read both of my replys and the intervening rant from trilingual. And instead of calling me names, please respond to my criticism of the inconsistency of the liberal positions. While you accuse me of racism, tri thinks it is hypocrisy for me to like hispanics as individuals while not wanting a massive invasion.

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RE: "Them!"

 

>Trix, before you criticize me you need to read both of my

>replys and the intervening rant from trilingual. And instead

>of calling me names, please respond to my criticism of the

>inconsistency of the liberal positions. While you accuse me of

>racism, tri thinks it is hypocrisy for me to like hispanics as

>individuals while not wanting a massive invasion.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before. Some of your best friends are Hispanics. Of course, only in backrooms and by-the-hour motels, because you wouldn't actually invite them to your house (except to mow the lawn or replace the roof) or to meet your friends and family. Amazing how some people just keep digging their holes deeper and deeper! But I guess that's the road to that popular red-hot resort, so they just keep on digging!

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RE: Answers

 

Zipperzone, my heart's pearl, I do not have the answers to all the world's problems. If I did, I probably wouldn't be hanging out here! However, I do have a moral compass within me, and it tells me that promoting legislation to felonize people who have risked everything to come here and work, at any kind of work, to earn a better life, is a bad thing.

 

There are an estimated 11 million undocumented people in the US. A great majority of those people are from Mexico and Central America. Some of them hold jobs wherein they pay taxes, some work "under the table", but that distinction mainly lies in the hand of the employer rather than the worker. All the day workers I've ever had the pleasure to meet would like to have a fulltime, documented job and pay taxes.

My own position on the subject is that people living undocumented in the US, ESPECIALLY those from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, etc. should be given full amnesty as long as they can show they've been working for the past 2-3 years. This amnesty should be extended to their immediate families as well. Those who have been working less defined jobs, day labor, etc. should be given the opportunity to work legally.

 

As for the future, I do not have answers to fix all the problems of the world. At the very least, the people of the US need to take a greater interest in what goes on in the nations to our south. If we actively supported actual democracies, fair labor practises, education and land reform, then less people would find they have the need to emigrate from their countries to here. As the world's largest consumer of natural resources, we do rather have a responsibilty to know where those resources come from, who is producing them, and how they are faring.

 

A guest worker program could also keep the prices of basic services and foodstuffs down, while creating a pipeline of hard cash to those who need it in the south. Economic research has already proven that the flow of money to cash-starved nations from workers in the US has vitalized local economies, and allowed people capitol property against which they can take out loans, create new businesses, etc.

 

Sharing the wealth of the US with our neighbors is a win-win situation. And the exchange of culture, ideas, and friendship we receive in having these people here is a prize beyond all estimation.

 

Trix

 

PS... Regarding your question about laws... I feel laws are meant to guide a society, not bind it.

 

 

:7

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Guest zipperzone

RE: "Them!"

 

>Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before. Some of your

>best friends are Hispanics.

 

Some of MY best friends are homosexuals.

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Guest zipperzone

RE: Answers

 

>PS... Regarding your question about laws... I feel laws are

>meant to guide a society, not bind it.

 

Trix: As I said before I basically agree with you, but I can't see an easy or quick resolution to the current problem. The U.S. is between a rock and a hard place on this one.

 

You say laws are meant to guide a society. Keep in mind that laws are also there to establish base as to what is acceptable - and what isn't.

 

Even if amnesty is granted according the formula you have outlined, I don't see how they can continue to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration in the future. If you simply open the floodgates and allow anyone in who can limp across the border, your own standard of living will be severly compromised.

 

It's a delemma that would require a Socratees to solve. And you sure ain't got no Socratees sitting in Washington these days.

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RE: Answers

 

Something similar to the proposed solution in the U.S. Senate would be acceptable, although it's not ideal (too hard to achieve an ideal solution with the current political climate).

 

But in my opinion there should be a legalization plan for all current undocumented immigrants (including their families) plus a fair, functioning guest worker program that allows would-be workers to find and apply for U.S. jobs in their homelands, so they don't have to cross the border illegally to find work. Guest workers also should have a path to permanent residence and citizenship. Work visas should NOT be tied to the particular job an immigrant holds, as is currently the case, because that creates a kind of dependence on the employer that can turn into a situation resembling slavery. Work visas should be granted to the individual, so that if the job is not what was promised, or the company goes out of business, etc., the worker doesn't lose the visa. The worker should be free to search for another, or a better job, without fear of deportation.

 

This is actually NOT a hard problem to solve if common sense is applied and xenophobia isn't accommodated. The flow of immigrants is very much a market phenomenon tied to supply and demand. When times are good and there are jobs available, people come. When times are bad, they don't. In this age of instant communication, everyone in the communities from which workers emigrate knows from their friends and relatives how the job market is in the U.S. With U.S. employment offices located in their home countries, and the knowledge that they can obtain a visa if they have a firm job offer and they meet other requirements, there will be much less incentive to cross the border illegally. There will always be some illegal immigration (made up mainly of those who for some reason haven't been able to qualify for a visa) but it should be much less than it is now with our "Fortress America" system and the borders will become much easier to control.

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Although you didn't address you question to me, I wanted to weigh in because your question is couched in what seems to be the all or nothing knee jerk extreme right out of the conservative playbook. I don't believe anyone who advocates taking a look at the immigration problem also advocates throwing open the floodgates. That concept is simply a conservative playbook red herring.

You cannot construct an effective immigration solution without taking into account that there are already 11 million undocumented workers here NOW.

 

My take on what needs to be done is this:

 

First, and foremost, close the borders and effectively police them to turn off the stream of illegals coming here.

 

Second, institute a plan to address the 11 million already here. Do you really believe we can find them? Use good sense. They are invisible when they want to be. We must find a way to enfranchise these people and make them taxpayers to help offset the drain on our economy by their use of our medical, education and housing supports. We need to make a pathway for them to become legal. Not quickly, but with enough painful requirements to allow them to earn documentation. They must enrol in a class to learn English. The plan needs to allow them to feel safe coming forward to be identified and registered

 

Many of these 11 million are children born here who are now citizens. Do you advocate sending their parents back and leaving the kids in foster care to grow up and become tagging gangsters? We need to create a step by step format that allows them to prove employment or register for employment on some important public works project, but in any case makes them a taxpayer rather than a drain on our resources.

 

Oh and finally, they all must be registered as Democrats. }(

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Guest zipperzone

> Many of these 11 million are children born here who are now

>citizens. Do you advocate sending their parents back and

>leaving the kids in foster care to grow up and become tagging

>gangsters?

 

Jack: I don't think I ever advocated sending the parents back, as it is not what I think should happen.

 

However, I have never seen the logic to the policy that dictates that any child born on US soil, automatically becomes an American citizen. That makes no sense to me at all and is a formula for ongoing difficulties.

 

>We need to create a step by step format that

>allows them to prove employment or register for employment on

>some important public works project, but in any case makes

>them a taxpayer rather than a drain on our resources.

 

So - after these 11 million illegals have done their due diligence and become citizens, will they still be willing to work for substandard wages? NO. So what is going to happen to the cost of building houses? And how many homes will no longer be able to afford domestic help. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying their wages shouldn't be equal. I'm just wondering what the consequences will be.

 

>Oh and finally, they all must be registered as Democrats.

 

That goes without saying.

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RE: "Them!"

 

There are two forms of gaining citizenship at birth: by birth in the country in which you are born or because your parent(s) are citizens of the country in which you are born (in other words, by blood). Many countries, like the U.S., use a combination of the two forms. Many other countries, however, only use (or used) the "by blood" version, resulting in a highly racist and exclusionary system. This is why Germany, in particular, has had so many problems with its guest workers and their descendants. Turkish immigrants found it almost impossible to become citizens. Their children who were born and grew up in Germany, having never known any life except their lives in Germany, weren't entitled to German nationality and were treated discriminatorily. This has changed in recent years, but it's the root of the problem. Citizenship by blood only is a sick and racist system.

 

It's a mystery for me why nations (including the U.S.) continue to act so blindly and stupidly, and very much against their own self-interests, on so many issues, including immigration and the legalization of drugs. Both the U.S. and Europe NEED immigrants. Europe in particular needs them, because their natural growth rates from births are in the negative numbers and without enough new, younger workers paying taxes into the pension system their entire network of social benefits will go bankrupt. The U.S. has a higher birth rate than Europe's, but we also need more workers than are available through natural increase. Instead of adopting sane, rational systems for encouraging immigration and facilitating the integration of immigrants into their societies so they feel like they're a part of their new countries, both the U.S. and Europe make life hard for immigrants and marginalize/segregate them. What a surprise that this ends up causing all kinds of undesirable problems!

 

The same is true of drug legalization. It's insane to be invested in the current policies that do nothing except provide staggering opportunities for drug traffickers to become richer than Croesus and to corrupt everyone and everything around them, including national governments, courts, the police, private enterprise, EVERYTHING! Not to mention bankrupting governments with ever-increasing prison costs! Legalizing drugs would put an end to that, as well as providing a positive revenue source for governments, stop the epidemics of drug-related crime that are overwhelming many nations including the U.S., and providing funds for effective treatment programs for the many people who want to stop using drugs but find themselves on long waiting lists for existing free or low-cost programs.

 

It's just seems suicidal that supposedly civilized, democratic nations insist on following such self-destructive courses.

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Guest zipperzone

RE: "Them!"

 

So you're saying, in effect, that a woman - let's say she's from Zanzibar for the purpose of this discussion, comes to the US on a student visa.

 

Unbeknownst to immigration, she was just a few weeks pregnant when she entered the country. Eight months later out pops the baby. Does this automatically make the baby a US citizen? It is my understanding that it does - am I wrong?

 

The woman has no intention of staying in the US and after her education is finished, she finds herself taking a job in England, and with her is her child who I presume would have all the rights on any US citizen.

 

Now I may be wrong in my reading of this matter, but if I am right then it makes no sense to me what-so-ever. And I don't see anything racist about my position either.

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RE: "Them!"

 

The answer is yes. Any child born in the U.S. is automatically a U.S. citizen. That has been U.S. law for decades. Maybe forever.

 

In the past, the fact that the child was a U.S. citizen made it possible for the non-citizen parents to stay in the U.S. because U.S. immigration policy was based on keeping families united. That changed during one of the previous racist-inspired immigration panics (about 20 years ago, I think). The child is still a U.S. citizen, but cannot "sponsor" his parents or immediate family for immigration until he reaches adulthood. This means that the child and his family still have to leave the U.S. because his parents aren't allowed to stay here.

 

The child ALSO is likely to have Zanzibar citizenship by blood, because his mother is Zanzibari. It depends on Zanzibar law (and I don't know if Zanzibar is really a country for purposes of citizenship, since I believe it's still part of Tanzania). These days most countries (including the U.S.) allow for dual citizenship, so the child could have both passports.

 

It works the other way around, too. A child born in Mexico of U.S. parents (as my siblings were) acquires Mexican citizenship automatically. If the parent register the birth at the U.S. embassy, the child also acquires U.S. citizenship and is entitled to both U.S. and Mexican passports.

 

The combination system (birth AND blood) is the fairest way to avoid children being born who become people without a country.

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