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What would provoke you to leave USA??

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After living abroad for over a year, I think there is no better country than the USA.


I was ambivalant about who won the USA presidency. I was more concerned about the threat to worldwide freedom.


John Kerry, who many people here looked up to as their leader, was eloquent in his final and best speech.


I love coming home to America. I would never leave the USA, even though I do not live there. :+

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I'm certainly not there yet. I really like living in the USA, and I do love this country and what it has basically (not perfectly) stood for (which has always been freedom). But what I'm seeing genuinely concerns me - I see it becoming less and less free, and that's frightening.


Specifically, if the US continues to become more disliked (or even hated) by the rest of the world, if we continue going to war because we want to "spread freedom" and without provocation, if gays keep losing their civil rights here instead of gaining them (outlawing marriage AND civil unions?), if conservative views and leaders start taking over more and more with less room for other viewpoints, and if we start losing our privacy and right to live as we choose without hurting anyone else (Patriot Act), I could see myself consider leaving. (We're talking probably double digit years, but it could happen). As Jon Stewart hinted on his election special, for now, I'm happy to huddle with my blue state pals. LOL. (Not to offend any Republicans - I just don't agree with your viewpoint and am, at heart, a liberal...and I want to see liberal values represented in this country as well.)


Where would I go? Europe, Canada...who knows? Somewhere free and gay-friendly.


I hope it never comes to this. I hope this is just a temporary direction and that checks and balances will end up protecting us and keeping America free. But I do worry, and I have to acknowledge that this may be a possibility in the future, even if I hope it never happens.

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>Anyone of the like mind, and what next BushCo move would make

>you leave??


I would have left to avoid the draft, back when we were sending young Americans to a senseless death in Vietnam.


I think that the best assurance that the draft will not be brought back, is a change requiring those over 50 to be called first. Unlikely to happen, so I plan to stay and continue the struggle against stupidity. (44% of voters in exit polls say that "things are going well in Iraq," before voting overwhelmingly for Bush.)


Odd how no one will rule out the use of nuclear weapons against totalitarian regimes, but everyone seems to be ruling out military conscription. If the draft was needed in World War II, what makes them think enough people will enlist if a new enemy shows up now?

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>After living abroad for over a year, I think there is no

>better country than the USA.


Doesn't everyone say this about their own country? It's sort of like saying, "I've met a lot of mothers but I still prefer mine".


>I was ambivalant about who won the USA presidency. I was more

>concerned about the threat to worldwide freedom.


And are you still ambivalent?


>John Kerry, who many people here looked up to as their leader,

>was eloquent in his final and best speech.


Well, granted, he does speak well.


>I love coming home to America. I would never leave the USA,

>even though I do not live there. :+


Spoken like a true ex-pat! :+

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Fighting Words


Provoke is a harsh word.


Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney now believe they have a mandate and unlike 2000, when he promised to unite and not divide, Bush does not even have such an illusory promise to go back on. In the last four years, irrespectives of the fact that a court decision and a dispute vote count in a state governed by his brother with a partisan election official making crucial decision were the factors which brought him to power, Bush governed as if he had a mandate.


I anticipate that we can expect much more, and then some, of the same.


I have the luxery of being able to claim dual citzenship, so for me the decision would fall more on the climate and the culture, politically and socially, fostered by those in power, both nationally and locally. While I personally feel this country is going back on a number of the principles on which it was founded and for which it should stand (such as civil and human rights), there is much to admire here and much which can be fostered to the betterment of both its citizens and the world. Only time can tell.

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>Anyone of the like mind, and what next BushCo move would make

>you leave??


NO & NONE! I am an American and proud to be. This country has survived good Presidents and Bad Presidents... we shall survive this one. I may have wanted another man to get elected but thank God we have a democracy and WE can choose our Leader. This country has made it's choice and we must make the best of it. Our President is not a Dictator and we must continue to express our desires as this country moves forward. Yes it will continue to move forward.

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>SF Chronicle has a article about people swamping local

>embassies seeking political asylum in Canada, New Zealand &



>Anyone of the like mind, and what next BushCo move would make

>you leave??


At heart, I'm a fighter not a runner. I've seen the articles on people departing. Apparently, one side or the other is fed up after most elections and at least talks about departing. While I hope to not end up eating these words, the circumstances that would cause me to go abroad for keeps would need to be pretty drastic and dramatic.


The US of A is home. My family and roots are here. There are a lot of places in the world I like. The best part of most trips is packing up and coming home.



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Likely nominees for federal appeals courts, as well as for the Supreme Court, truly frighten me and would be a major motivating factor for a move, although Bush's views on environmental issues, economic issues, and civil rights also distress me. As others have said, staying and fighting probably is wiser, but I'm tired of fighting, having begun my fights in the civil rights struggles in the mid 50's and continuing up through driving inner-city residents to the polls Tuesday and driving them home late Tuesday night in several cases. While there were local successes, Ohio's going for Bush deflated me more than any other race ever has. The most heartening thing for me was seeing the long lines at polling places and noting that people were not leaving in spite of persistent rain and seemingly immobile lines. Still, I began perusing employment pages in papers of Toronto and Montreal Tuesday.

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For the past four years, most of my sexual gratification (about 2/3) has centered around illegal activities (hiring escorts, that is.). As long as I can continue to comfortably break the law without repercussion, I see no reason to flee abroad just yet. There are, of course, many political reasons to leave... but I do enjoy an intelligent fight. This country is as good as any to live in while hoping and striving for positive change. But should the fight become wearisome, I can think of several highish altitude places (because I'm not built for the heat) in Central or South America I could gladly retire to.

Not that those countries are any more progressive, but a small nest of savings equates a nice home, a comfortable middle-

class existence, and the favors of half the boys in the village in almost any country in latin America.

Yes, it's a bit of a predatory notion... isn't it funny how one can be predatory and a good liberal at the same time?




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I said it, you said it, pretty much anyone with a brain larger than a grape or a soul more nimble than a rock said it maybe a thousand times over.

And you probably weren't even all that drunk when you said it and maybe you were even a little more than half serious and maybe you said it just like this: If Bush somehow snags another election, if the unthinkable comes to pass and the Dubya neocon nightmare refuses to end, well, that's it. I'm outta here.


Done. Over. Gone. Moving away. To Canada. Or France. Latvia. Uranus. Anywhere, really, that doesn't have Bush as leader and that doesn't make me openly ashamed to be a citizen and that doesn't make me feel like a sickened disillusioned ulcerated outcast in my own happily divisive country every damn day including Sunday.


You want a place, you say, that doesn't right this minute seem to be working heroically to make homophobia and born-again fundamentalism and pre-emptive isolationist warmongering and environmental ignorance a national religion. A place where SUVs aren't considered minor deities and where gay people aren't loathed for wanting to slice a wedding cake and where brazen heavily narcotized denial in the face of a veritable mountain of presidential lies isn't the national pastime.


Tempting, isn't it? To just move away to a sunnier, clothing-optional utopia and wait for it all to be over, for the dark days to pass and the Shrub era to sink into the tar pits of history and the fog to finally lift?


After all, most all of us on the progressive Left feel we truly faced the dragon this election, and we put up a valiant fight and marshaled as potent an army of dissenters and intellectuals and moderates and liberal crusaders and feminists and enlightened activists as possible, considering.


And we supposedly had more of the youth vote and the disenfranchised single-female vote and the "Daily Show" vote and the Eminem vote and the celebrity vote and the humanitarian vote and the antiwar vote and the gay vote and the pro-choice vote and the Howard Stern vote and the immigrant vote, and still the dragon just sneered and hacked up another fireball of bogus fear and evangelical Christian self-righteousness and torched our glimmering sword of juicy hope into a smoking cinder.


And now, this. The nation has officially, stupefyingly handed the world's worst president a blank check to do whatever he and his cronies like, without fear of major repercussions or voter disillusionment or damage to an imminent re-election campaign, because there won't be one.


Which is to say, Bush now has no one to worry about now but his true constituents (hint: it ain't mainstream Repubs, or even the born-agains), no one to answer to but the CEOs and the energy barons and the military-supply corporations co-owned by his father, and nothing to guide him but his own deeply regressive, monosyllabic moral compass. Hell, why stick around for more of that?


But here's the catch. Here's the tough part to accept. Here's what everyone who's right now on the brink of packing their bags and checking the real estate prices in Vancouver has to know and has to have drilled into their disconsolate hope-crushed souls right this minute, before it's too late:


You cannot leave. You cannot drop the armor now. Why? Because you are needed, more than ever. You are mandatory to keep the energy flowing, the karmic vibrator buzzing, to keep the progressive and lucid half of the nation breathing and healthy and awake and ever reaching out to the half that's wallowing in fear and violence and homophobia and sexual dread, hoping to find harmony instead of cacophony, common ground instead of civil war, some sort of a shared love of a country so messy and internationally disrespected and openly confused its own president can't even speak the language.


After all, you don't hand over all your children the first time the flying monkeys bang on your door. You don't give up your dream house just because a bunch of gangbangers moved in down the block. You become a bit more wary and alert and you stock up on the superlative porn and the expensive wine and the deepened sense of true beauty and sex and love and hope and you hunker down and grit your teeth and dig in for the long haul, and you work on making your own goddamn garden more beautiful than even you could have imagined, because, well, the neighborhood -- and the world -- needs it, more than ever.


Look. No one said it was gonna be easy. No one said it was gonna be painless. And no one said it was gonna be quick. As I've noted before, the neocons have been planning this takeover for decades. The Bush regime, despite feeling like a massive indigestible incomprehensible fluke, is no accident.


The GOP is deeply entrenched and the razor wire is all around their compound and they are masterful at working the angles of fear and manipulation and of kowtowing to the least tolerant and least morally flexible segments of the population -- this is, after all, how Bush won a second term -- and hence they aren't about to just roll over at the first sign of outcry or dissent or a snowboarding senator, even if he's 10 times the man and a thousand times the intellect of the smirking lunk currently in office.


And besides, most hardcore Republicans would, of course, love it if you'd leave the country, and take your gul-dang gay-lovin' tofu-eatin' tree-huggin' pierced-labia values with you. They would love it, furthermore, if the libs in the morally shredded red states would split for the coastal cities and the major metropolises of America, all those godless heathen places where the neighbors won't yank the Kerry/Edwards sign outta your front lawn and chase you down and beat you with it and call it patriotism. Remember: bullies never deserve to own the playground.



And one of the most stirring e-mails I received during the outpouring of grief the day after the election was from a young female reader, "an artist, an intellectual and a Jew" who's been living in Mexico and who now says she's so enraged and saddened by the election's ugly outcome that she's preparing to return to the States ASAP, just so she can help, so she can join the resistance, keep the right-wingers from coming after our souls. Now, that's patriotism.


The bottom line: Don't disband the newfound army just because one ugly battle was lost. Mourn, commiserate, lick wounds, lick each other, drink heavily, spit out your stale gum of disappointment and pop in a fresh clove of laughter and spiritual heat and then regroup and sober up and take an even deeper breath and watch in hot wet spiritually emboldened amusement as the cosmic circus unfolds.


It's far from over. The tunnel is just a little darker -- and longer -- than we imagined.


Mark Morford ~sfgate.com~

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I think this is a good subject for discussion. I am very proud of being an American. I am a very liberal man who is also very patriotic. However, I do not rule out the possibility that I may change homelands if the fight to regain America's true colors of freedom and justice for all fails.


I will stay and fight the good fight to bring positive change and libreal values back to this country. However, I am reminded of a few things in American History.


If you look at our history, you see that in it's beginning, Blacks were legally slaves with no freedoms or rights. In fact they were legally considered less than human. With a stroke of a pen, they were granted freedom but with very limited rights. It was nearly a century later that they achieved social and civil rights in our nation and this too was granted with a stroke of a pen. Now we see that Conservatives are using the same stroke of a pen to revoke the rights of certain Americans. They are attempting to role back affirmative action to restrict economic and social growth of minorities and they are trying to limit the rights of Gays on many fronts. From the military, to marriage and from adoption, to being able to work as teachers or boy scout leaders, the Republican conservatives are winning the war against anyone who doesn't fit their mold of being Christian, WASP, hetersexual men. They support keeping the minnimum wage low because it keep minorities poor and powerless. It doesn't bother their "Family Values" that single mothers have to try to feed, clothe and house their children on next to nothing. Yet they want to imprison them for resorting to crime in order to take care of their families.


There is nothing moral about the Republican platform. It terrifies me that Americans are swinging towards and even embracing their values. I am reminded of Germany during WWII. When their economy was in shambles, Hitler eloquently, blamed the Jews for their nations problems. The people bought into the theory and a race war spread throughout Europe. Millions of Jews were killed, abused, imprisoned and raped. This was done, not by a few zellous extremous. This was done by average everyday people who believed the Ultra conservative measage and embraced those very same values.


When George Bush and the Republican Party received a mandate by winning the popular vote convincingly by more than 50% on a platform of Anti-Gay, Anti-Minority rights, Orthodox Christian Values, it paved the way for the Conservatives to take this once free land down a very very dark path. If you didn't like what you saw in the first four years, just wait. Things are about to get much worse.


We may no longer be the land of the free. The land where everyone is allowed to express their disdain or dislike of what our leaders are doing. We may no longer be able to be openly Gay. We may no longer be able to go against the values of certain churches. People who are Arab or Black or Latino may find themselves with less opportunities or rights than they had 4 years ago.


Brilliantly, George Bush made Gays the Jews of the Nazi regime. By making Gay marriage an issue in several states, he made Gays and Gay rights the new enemies of the State. Look for new sodomy laws to pop up across the country. Also, I would not be surprised if we see Gay bars becoming targets of law enforcement and eventually shut down.


I hope none of this happens, but recent history has shown that this is a real possibility.


If I do see signs that our once free nation is heading this way, I will leave it and take my whole family with me. We will not be proud to live in a land like that. It will no longer be worthy of our support and citizenship.

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And a response to gays NOT leaving the country:


Yeh, I do to... Seems people think its just 4 years and it will all be over... But there's no guarantee of that! And why should we hang around here, apologetic about the morons who run the country? As he said in the article, they don't want us here, they'd love it if we leave, so why not? What are we giving up, 4 years of being nauseated each time we turn on the news, 4 years of riots in the streets, 4 year of worrying every time you hear a plane that's too loud, 4 years of watching the body bags come back in ever increasing numbers, 4 years of watching as the gains Gay people have made just to be left alone are reversed and we become the persecuted, 4 years of a wrecked economy just getting worse, 4 years of unable to leave the country for fear of the well-deserved harassment we will receive from ANYPLACE on the planet we visit, 4 years of stress, 4 years of HELL.


For what? just to say I'm a good American? Well I am a good American and as I remember it I have the right of 'Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS' and that is not what this country provides any longer.


No, this Germany, 1930 all over again, soon we lose our rights, then we lose our lives. Stay and wait to see what happens? Stay to fight? My cousins in the government did that in Germany and the day after he was named Chancellor (or, I should say he named himself Chancellor) they were rounded up and shot.


We've done our jobs, we have the ability to leave (maybe), I don't see one patriotic reason to stay.

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The day after the election over 110,000 Americans logged on to the Immigration Canada site. That number now tops 250,000. They are actively interested in getting skilled and highly trained workers.


Unless you have very specialist skills or those in demand (like nurses and some doctors) you will not be able to get a work permit in the EU unless you are granted full asylum status. Remember tho that as an exile you will still be able to vote as an ex-patriot and it will not be necessary for you to "change homeland".


Over half the Canadian provinces now have gay marriage and the rest should have it next year. The UK will have "domestic partnerships" giving virtually the same status as marriage, including divorce provisions. It is unclear whether either will give you residence/working rights. If you do want citizenship after a while there, both will allow you the choice of swearing or affirming your allegiance. Stangely enough both mention God in the national anthems even if neither feel the need to incant a pledge "under God" at every opportunity.


Get your practice in now:






I swear/affirm that I will be faithful and bear true

allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second,

Queen of Canada. Her Heirs and Successors, according to law

and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and

fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen."






O Canada! Our home and native land!

True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,

The True North strong and free!

From far and wide, O Canada,

We stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.






Oath of allegiance


I (name) swear by Almighty God that on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law.


Affirmation of allegiance


I (name) do solemnly and sincerely affirm that on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law.


After the Oath or affirmation, you will take the citizenship Pledge




I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen.




God save our gracious Queen,

Long live our noble Queen,

God save the Queen!

Send her victorious,

Happy and Glorious,

Long to reign over us;

God save the Queen!


O Lord our God arise,

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall;

Confound their politics,

Frustrate their knavish tricks,

On Thee our hopes we fix,

Oh, save us all!


Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour;

Long may she reign;

May she defend our laws,

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice,

God save the Queen!


Not in this land alone,

But be God's mercies known,

From shore to shore!

Lord make the nations see,

That men should brothers be,

And form one family,

The wide world over


From every latent foe,

From the assassins blow,

God save the Queen!

O'er her thine arm extend,

For Britain's sake defend,

Our mother, prince, and friend,

God save the Queen!


(Normally only the first is sung with the third added if a ceremonial occasion tho I do like the second and fourth ones)

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God save our gracious Queen,

Long live our noble Queen,==


As an American columnist pointed out about the London newspaper headline that referred to 59 million dumb Americans -- imagine that, coming from an island whose people profess their allegiance to a family that flits from scandal to scandal.


And then there is the small matter of Tony Blair's eager rimming of George Bush.

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The judicial coup d'etat that brought Bush to power in 2000 was enough to provoke me. I'm gone. Once Bush appoints extreme right- wingers to the Supreme Court (and all the lower courts), and he and his right-wing collaborators in Congress succeed in rolling the clock back to the Robber Baron era of the 1880s, and recriminalize abortion and sodomy (and, who knows, outlaw divorce?) it'll be all over. The insane deficits and warmongering will put the nail in the coffin. I'm afraid the U.S. has officially begun its long, final decline. It'll take a long time for a country as big, wealthy and powerful as the U.S. to fade away, but like the Roman Empire and later the British Empire, it, too will expire.


Having spent my working life in the U.S., my pension and health benefits come from there. My parents are still living and in pretty good shape, even though they're 92 and 82. Much as I'm tempted to, I can't turn my back on the U.S. entirely. There will always be some connection, and while my parents are living I'll have to spend time there. But once they're gone, I don't know. I'm getting older, too, and those umpteen-hour plane trips are getting less appealing all the time. And I no longer share the values of the majority of my ignorant, intolerant fellow countrymen.


It's been nice knowing you, America. Sorry it didn't work out. . .

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A week after, and time to leave???





First, the situation. Four years ago a failure of a businessman, backed

by billionaires and the energy cartel, using massive fraud and voter

intimidation and with the complicity of the Republicans on the U.S.

Supreme Court, took control of the presidency.


During the past four years the Bush administration has, among other

things, looted the treasury, slashed taxes for the ultra-rich while

cutting legitimate spending, lost the respect of the world by launching an

illegal and obscenely expensive war, while lying about the reason for

doing so and set this country on a course that will almost certainly

result in a massive economic meltdown.


This administration has shown an utter disregard and disdain for

previously ratified and signed treaties, laws, and most chillingly, the

Bill of Rights and The Constitution itself.


The Kyoto Treaty goes against the interests of the oil industry? No

problem, it's history.


Those quaint, outdated rules from the Geneva Convention getting in the way

of asking about the whereabouts of Bin Laden in a meaningful way? No

problem. They're out a' here. No mind that the people who worked so hard

to put the Geneva Convention into place were protecting OUR soldiers who

might find themselves in the unenviable position of being POWs someday.


That darn Bill of Rights? No problem. Got just the answer. A

bi-partisan committee, Democrats and Republicans working together are

putting together a set of laws to help law enforcement deal with the

threat of terrorism while still respecting the rights of the citizenry.

Let's just sneak in the night before the committee presents its finished

product to Congress and pull out all their ideas and stick in our own.

(THEY DID THAT!) Congress passed these huge, thick stacks of laws without

ever cracking the cover and reading them, and passed them despite the fact

that members of the committee spoke up and pointed out that these weren't

the laws that they had written, not one page, and begged their fellow

lawmakers not to approve them. By-by freedoms. Hello Patriot Act.


"Freedom of the press"? You can keep that freedom. But we don't see

anything about "freedom to read", and so we will be keeping track of what

you check out of the library and what you buy at the bookstore. Might be a

good idea not to read anything more subversive than "My Pet Goat".


How about that pesky "Freedom of Information Act" which was put into place

after Nixon's little escapades? Ashcroft has the answer. "Don't respond

to the requests,” he ordered the federal government.


"Due process of law" getting in the way? No problem. We move prisoners

to our base on the island of Cuba and try to keep a straight face while we

claim that constitutional and basic human rights don't apply because these

people are not in a territory of the United States.


It just goes on and on and on...


And we put up with it by telling ourselves that this was just a rouge

government, which had cheated its way into office. All would be well in

2004 when the country would march to the polls and throw the greedy

bastards out.




It didn't work out that way.


No rerun of the 2000 election debacle this time. No waiting through weeks

of lawsuits and the starting and stopping of vote recounts. Nope. Within

a relatively few hours after the last vote was cast the results were in.

51% of the popular vote and enough Electoral College votes left George W.

Bush firmly in control.


As far as I can tell, that means one of two things. Either the

Republicans learned from 2000 and got better at cheating. This could very

well be a possibility. For the second presidential election in a row

there was a big discrepancy between the results forecast by the exit

polling and the actual results. Many, too, are suspicious of the new

e-voting machines. Fears that were prompted by the maker of one of the

most popular models, who promised President Bush that he would do

everything in his power to insure his reelection. Those fears were only

strengthened by the discovery after the 2004 election that one machine in

Ohio that had tallied nearly 4,000 votes for Bush had been used in a

precinct where only 638 people had actually voted.


OR it could mean that 51% of the voters actually wanted, for whatever

reason, to keep this bunch in office. As England's Daily Mirror newspaper

asked across their front page "How can 59,054,087 people be so dumb?"




There is no question that the right wing extremists who are in control of

the Republican Party have seized religion as the sole domain of the

Republicans and have used the threat of rampant homosexuality, and the

acceptance thereof, as the threat, along with abortion, to galvanize the

self described religious believers into political action. Presidential

advisor and kingmaker Carl Rove laid the game out like a veteran chess

player, always half a dozen moves ahead of his opponent. Sensing the

public disapproval of the Supreme Court decision that legalized sex

between people of the same gender Rove jumped on the issue. Months

earlier a group of representatives had announced a campaign to amend the

U.S. Constitution to ban gay marriage. It had been a one-day news story

and most people, straight and gay, thought it was a pretty crackpot idea.


Rove injected new blood into that amendment movement and turned it into a

major campaign issue. This frustrated the gay community who had been

fighting most of their civil rights battles in the courtroom. There they

had started to have luck in explaining the civil rights implications and

their impact on the daily lives of GLBT people. There was no doubt though

in anyone's mind that the courts were ahead of the attitudes of a lot of

the country, just as they had been when dealing with the civil rights of

non-white Americans. As many Americans had trouble accepting the courts'

pronouncements on racial equality, many too are having trouble accepting

full equality for gays and lesbians. We gays knew that our rights would

not stand up to the popular vote at this time. At the same time we do not

believe that civil rights are subject to popular vote.


Rove's decision to use gay marriage as the "Willie Horton" of the 2000

elections left us in a no-win situation and no way to get out of it. To

put it plainly "we was screwed". San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom has

come under fire since the election for his actions in allowing thousands

of gay couples to marry. Some blame him for Bush's reelection. Naw.

Rove would have been just as successful if Newsom had done nothing. Fair

to say, the sight of older gay couples, together for decades, finally

being able to marry probably did melt some hearts. It certainly had as

much promise to improve things as most of the actions we as a community

had taken so far. It may have eventually ended up as icing on Rove's

cake, but it wasn't the main course.


In the end Rove got it right. His call of "The faggots are coming, the

faggots are coming!" got 'em to the polls. Hell, he was so good that exit

polling showed that even 20% of self-identified gays voted for Bush.




The question that I have to ask myself is if, in addition to the threats

faced by all of us because of this administration's reckless military,

foreign, domestic and fiscal polices, do I face even greater threats

because I am gay? Is this administration done with using me as one of

their tools now that the election is over? Or could it be that they have

no intention of discarding a tried and proven crowd pleaser?




The Jew waiting his turn to be marched to the death chamber in Hitler's

concentration camps was forced to wear the Star of David. The homosexual

standing next to him was forced to wear a pink triangle.


That pink triangle means a lot to me. It serves as a warning that history

can and often does repeat itself. It is a reminder to remember always

what happened to those millions of people in Germany: the Jews, the

Gypsies, the homosexuals and the socialists and the others.


George W. Bush, through the Department of Homeland Security, keeps telling

us to “remain vigilant” to the threat of terror. Well, for many years I

have been vigilant for signs of a greater threat to this country. I’ve

been watching for signs of fascism. (Google defines fascism as: “An

extreme form of nationalism that played on fears of communism and rejected

individual freedom, liberal individualism, democracy, and limitations on

the state.”)


I think often of those people in Germany, especially the Jews, as Hitler

took power. Some of them spotted the signs of impending disaster early

and were able to flee. Some ignored the signs, certain that their country

and fellow citizens would not forsake them. Others were trapped by

circumstance. Unable to leave they fell victim to the ever tightening

noose of public hate which would eventually lead them to the ovens.


The trips to the death camps did not begin at once. There were a series

of events in which first Hitler took power by extralegal means. He then

in cynical manipulation mobilized the masses around the supposed threat to

the common good posed by the existence of a certain minority group. Then

came a series of increasingly restrictive laws which quickly separated

that targeted group from the rest of society.




We have a leader who took office in questionable circumstances. This

leader does not feel bound by law, he embraces the flimsiest excuses to

ignore the laws, and some cases does it without even bothering to explain.


We have a leader who cares not a whit for the views of those who don’t

agree with him, whether those people might be nearly half of the

population of the U.S. or most of the leaders and millions and millions of

citizens of the rest of the world. GWB voiced his attitude towards

others’ concerns when he snapped “Why should I care what you think?” at a

citizen who questioned the then upcoming invasion of Iraq


We have a leader who presides over a vindictive administration. One which

has more than once has shown its willingness to viciously attack those who

criticize it.


This leader used an arm of the government, the IRS to threaten the tax

exempt status of the NAACP because its leader, Julian Bond, made one

speech highly critical of Bush to the group. Yet no such threat has been

made against any church, all of which are tax exempt and are governed by

the same rules, even though many preachers used their pulpits week after

week to urge that John Kerry not be elected. Some went so far as to

instruct their followers that to vote for Kerry would be to sin against



This leader does not believe that the rights granted under the

constitution of the United States apply to those he deems his enemies.


This leader does not care at all for America or her people. His every

decision is based on greed. He and his friends have not only plundered

the treasury, but their grasping hands are extended into time, stealing

this country’s future earnings.


This leader in cynical manipulation mobilized the masses around the

supposed threat to the common good posed by the existence of a certain

minority group – Homosexuals and the agenda they push.


This leader advocates restrictive laws that separate the targeted group

from the rest of society. He will write gays out of the law, going to the

very bedrock of our legal system, the Constitution, to enshrine a ban on

marriage between us.


WHAT TO YOU MEAN, “US”, WHITE MAN? – Tonto to the Lone Ranger


In Germany the Jews found no one to speak up for them. All their former

allies slunk away or, in some cases even came back to taunt them. Post

the 2004 election many of those we thought of as allies of the gay

community are fading away or actively calling for our expulsion from their

side of the political discourse. Unaware of, or ignoring the fact that

Carl Rove had much more to do with using gay people as this year’s “Willie

Horton” then any activists or marriage proponent, many are quite vocal

about being saddled with the baggage of gay civil rights and advocate

dumping the issue.




If more laws targeting gays are enacted. These might regard anything from

the ability to teach the young, to a requirement that all HIV people must

register with the government.


If courts continue to strike down anti-discrimination laws. In a recent

case a court ruled that a dentist could refuse to work on gay patients

because of his claimed religious objections.


If the administration attempts to muzzle its critics. For starters I am

going to keep an eye on those individuals and groups who did so much to

organize the left. If Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, the folks at Moveon.org

and the other high visibility targets suffer misfortunes I will get very



If the churches and/or the politicians continue to agitate against “the

gay agenda”. The fact that before the ink had completely dried on the

election results officials announced that textbooks in the state of Texas,

not a trove of gay mentions to begin with, would be re-written to replace

the word “individuals” with the words “man and woman” in any reference to

marriage doesn’t reassure me at all.


If the president ignores or attempts to circumvent any more laws or

provisions of the Constitution.




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I was under the impression that the following song lyrics were from the Canadian National Anthem:


I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK

I sleep all night and I work all day

(He's a lumberjack and he's OK

He sleeps all night and he works all day)

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch

I go to the lavat'ry

On Wednesdays I go shopping

And have buttered scones for tea

(He cuts down trees...)

(He's a lumberjack...)

I cut down trees, I skip and jump

I love to press wild flow'rs

I put on women's clothing

And hang around in bars

(He cuts down trees...)

(He's a lumberjack...)

I cut down trees, I wear high heels

Suspenders and a bra

I wish I'd been a girlie

Just like my dear papa

(He cuts down trees...)

(He's a lumberjack...)}( :+

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Guest icon513

I left the US in 1987, and have lived the expat life ever since. Not as a protest against anything, but because that's where the winds of fate (and my particular interests) blew me.


The US -- or parts of it, anyway -- still offer a very comfortable (if not very exciting) lifestyle. But there are lots and lots of places in the world that offer a similarly comfortable lifestyle. Many grant freedoms to gays that are probably 50 years off in all but the most liberal pockets of the US.


I don't believe it makes someone a traitor to make a life in a country other than that of his birth. Rather, it gives him a unique perspective on his homeland, and on the world, that other more sedentary types couldn't possibly achieve. Maybe part of the mess that the US is currently in is due to the fact that we have a president who'd never traveled outside the country before he took office, except maybe to buy cheap booze in Mexican border towns. I sure wish more of the US population had the faintest clue what life was like elsewhere...they might be surprised how good -- and how bad -- it can be.

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RE: A week after, and time to leave???


A very interesting thread to say the least. All this funny talk about people wanting to leave for Canada and so forth. I seem to recall in the 2000 Presidential Election, the same sentiments echoed then as well. In fact one person's name comes to mind instantly.


Actor Alec Baldwin, a long time Liberal Activist made a public statement just over four years ago now. Mr Baldwin made his feelings known that if then Governor George W. Bush is elected to the Presidency. He would leave the United States and take seek refuge in Canada.


Apparently not, the last time I read his name in a media publication, he currently still resides in the USA. I believe shortly after the election in 2000, Mr Baldwin hosted NBC's " Saturday Night Live ". He got a total ribbing for statements during the monologue, when he took questions from the audience. In fact Producer Lorne Michaels did a slight parody on Mr Baldwin's public comments at the time. To his credit, Alec Baldwin took it in great stride.


I think it becomes a bit absurd when people start thinking of packing their bags and moving to other countries because of a Presidential Election. The only time i would consider moving to another country would be if I were offered a better job with more financial rewards. It's just plain common sense with a little thinking power.



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Guest zipperzone

RE: A week after, and time to leave???


>I think it becomes a bit absurd when people start thinking of

>packing their bags and moving to other countries because of a

>Presidential Election. The only time i would consider moving

>to another country would be if I were offered a better job

>with more financial rewards. It's just plain common sense

>with a little thinking power.


One should not assume that the country you wish to move to will welcome you with open arms just because you are a disalusioned American. Canada has it's own immigration rules and requirements. It's not simply an open door policy any more than it would be if a Canadian would want to move to and work in the USA.

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RE: A week after, and time to leave???






>One should not assume that the country you wish to move to

>will welcome you with open arms just because you are a

>disalusioned American. Canada has it's own immigration rules

>and requirements. It's not simply an open door policy any more

>than it would be if a Canadian would want to move to and work

>in the USA.



You're absolutely right. In Europe it used to be a five year waiting period depending on which North American Country a person wanted to move to. A sponsorship is required first, in other words a relative had to be a resident within the country of intent. Once the forms are properly processed. The Embassy would call and person or individuals would be interviewed by the Immigration Officer and take the oath of allegiance to honor the country's values and laws. Once that was done with, there would be a six week interval. Then the big brown envelope would come in the mail and then it would be D-Day. One would either get the visa or the Green Card and that would be it. All this would take place over a five year waiting period.



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