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Lock her up! Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up!


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Valuing properties is an art, not a science.  The Trump brand was an asset and gave his properties more value.  Banks that loan large amounts of money with at least eight zeros on the closing statement are quite sophisticated. Does Ms. James believe the lenders just took Mr. Trump's word as to property values? My understanding is all that all the loans were paid as agreed, therefore precluding damages.   This is nothing more than a political witch hunt by a state's Attorney General that has allowed her emotions to overwhelm her intellect which is extremely deficient.   And no lenders/insurers have complained that they just handed Trump money or policies without doing their required due diligence.

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This is a witch hunt as James ran on indicting Trump and couldn't even come up with anything criminal.  The US Attorney's Office for the Southern District and the Manhattan DA's office sent all her documents back to her with a big no dice.   No bank will make a loan without an appraisal, and it will be their appraisal not yours.  People are buying into James’ lie.  She knows that the majority of the population is financially illiterate.  

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This is just another example of political persecution, plain and simple. This will be dragged out as long as necessary and then it will disappear once its purpose has been served. The Democrats and the media love to call out that democracy is in danger, but the sad truth is they are responsible, like when they call Trumpists a threat to democracy and yet contribute $40 million to Trump backed candidates in 2022.  There is no longer the Rule of Law in this country thanks to the dems and all their scheming.  Karma will come..... "There is no peace for the wicked".

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5 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

I do find it interesting that so many conservatives are willing to go down these Alice In Wonderland rabbit holes. 

You mean - like reading the law?  

5 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

What I think you may be missing, @BnaC, is that what matters most here is the court of public opinion.  Not the court of law.

Hmmm, interesting comment given the title of this thread…

5 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

To summarize:  try to keep up with the polls and elections, @Bnac.  That's what matters most.

Oh, so you really are admitting it’s about a public flogging and not about the truthful application of the law?

5 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

And inform us about how Trump is right and everybody else is wrong.

Trump really hasn’t been the object of my response, has he?   The object of my posts here has been the weakness of a case that you, and others, have already prejudged the guilt in.  You can drive a union driven freight locomotive through this case…and while I have asked twice, not one person has come up with anything but demagogic apologetics.  

4 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

You're simply embarrassed at being owned by a new guy who's been here only nine months. 🎯

Now who’s taking the ad hominem approach.  The reality is that I hit it point for point, you make it personal.  I suspect we’ve sparred before and your name wasn’t Marc, and if so, you already know you need to be on topic and relevant to own the debate.  It’s interesting that you think you were responsive and on point in any of this discourse.

4 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

But you seem to think that I also have to disclose the AG's strategy and detailed documentation for fully proving the state's charges in the lawsuit. Hint: I don't. That's her job, and she's going to do it. 

What an inherently weak statement.  For the record, the telling of a strong and truthful case under the law doesn’t require a strategy.  The facts are the strength of the case, not the strategy.  So, the need for a “strategy” underscores the weakness of her case.  

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2 hours ago, BnaC said:

Oh, so you really are admitting it’s about a public flogging and not about the truthful application of the law?

The more interesting question is this:  what would it take for MAGA conservatives to see Trump as a liar and a crook?

That rant has now taken on a whole new context.

Arguably, even if he had killed one person on Fifth Ave., that would be far less bad than intentionally dividing the country, lying about a stolen election, organizing and unleashing the Jubilant Patriotic Cop Beating, undermining democracy and public trust in American institutions, and various other things.  His garden variety grifting and the kind of financial shenanigans the AG is going after are small ball by comparison.  

I did make the point that being a crook, and being proven to be a crook in a court of law, are not the same things.  One Never Trump Republican on Morning Joe joked right after Mar A Lago that it may be librarians, of all people, that finally end up putting him behind bars.

So, yeah, I think the most important impact is in the court of public opinion.  And specifically 2024.  Although it clearly already is having an impact on 2022, which doesn't look good for the MAGA Party.  And that doesn't mean I'm saying Trump is innocent and just being picked on.  Any more than I would argue Hillary or Bill were innocent and just being picked on.  But I don't have to argue that, since Trump and the  MAGettes argued it so passionately with "Lock Her Up."

What's a bit surprising to me is that most MAGA people seemingly don't give a shit what most voters, especially Independents, think.  Trump fired the bullet right into the bullseye in the rant above.  He's our guy.  We're with him no matter what.   "No matter what" so far means losing The Presidency, the House, and the Senate.  And almost certainly hundreds of thousands of Republican Trump voters who drank the KoolAid and didn't get vaccinated and are now dead.  But, apparently, who gives a shit?  Most other voters do.  But the MAGettes just love their guy.  No matter what.

That is a big difference with the Clintons.  Bill did win twice, and got a lot of very popular and bipartisan stuff done.  Whatever qualms people had about Hillary, she looked like a winner.  Once she lost, notice how my party didn't insist she come back for more in 2020.  What I don't get is why rally around a liar and a crook after he has proven himself to be a loser so consistently?

The civil case against Trump is more likely than not never going to be fought out in court.  But more than 50 % of the reason why is Trump's attorneys seem to want to settle it out of court.  Ever wonder why?   What does Trump not want the public to know?

Edited by stevenkesslar
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52 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

The more interesting question is this:  what would it take for MAGA conservatives to see Trump as a liar and a crook?

Maybe you should find one and ask him…but until you do that, half baked prosecutions with witch hunt overtones just fan their flames hotter and undercut trust in the system.  How many laws have you broken @stevenkesslar before you felt it necessary to tell government to stay out of your bed?

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ~ Ayn Rand

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11 hours ago, BnaC said:

Ok, let's go with that and investigate the first one:

  • § 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree. A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof. Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.

As I read this, to be "guilty" there is an "and" which includes "intent" to "commit another crime".   

Hmmmm, I think I understand just fine.   

Based on the actual code, there's more to making this case than simply one dimension...and proving guilt will likely require more than just an assertion from an AG intent on getting her 15 minutes of fame.   If I recall, she RAN on the platform of pinning something on him...her conclusion was set before she was elected AG and she's made her desire to go on to be governor clear, hasn't she?  Frankly, the only thing about her that impresses me is that she went to Howard...

So, if you actually have some insight, I'm all ears...but based on this start, I'm guessing you don't.

 

Looking at the actual law is useful - Do try to keep up!

In order to avert potential embarrassment from her lawsuit being lost or dismissed, you should immediately notify Leticia James and/or Brenda K. Sannes, the federal judge that threw out trump’s lawsuit to end the investigation, of your analysis of the case. They probably lack your level of legal expertise and would be most grateful for your knowledgeable input.

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10 hours ago, augustus said:

The Trump brand was an asset and gave his properties more value.

Incorrect.   While the Trump brand has value, it is an intangible asset.  It does not transfer over to the value of any specific property.

Think of it this way - - if the Trump brand was a publicly traded company, the stock price would be reflective of the value company, which is often higher than the net value on the company's balance sheet.  To use a large banking company as an example, JPMorgan Chase & Co's annual report indicates that book value of the company at 12/31/21 was $88.07 per share, yet the individual shares of stock were trading over $160 per share at year end.  

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1 hour ago, sam.fitzpatrick said:

It does not transfer over to the value of any specific property.

That is not correct.  Bricks and mortar valuation may not be different but value in use will be.   That’s why McDonalds locations trade at a higher valuation metrics than, for example, Wendy’s….or Hilton over Motel 6.  The brand assigned to the real estate creates the cash flow that creates the value.  

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1 hour ago, sam.fitzpatrick said:

Incorrect.   While the Trump brand has value, it is an intangible asset.  It does not transfer over to the value of any specific property.

Think of it this way - - if the Trump brand was a publicly traded company, the stock price would be reflective of the value company, which is often higher than the net value on the company's balance sheet.  To use a large banking company as an example, JPMorgan Chase & Co's annual report indicates that book value of the company at 12/31/21 was $88.07 per share, yet the individual shares of stock were trading over $160 per share at year end.  

Are you sure about that?  Coke has a book value of about $5 a share but sells for $58 a share.  Goodwill and other intangible assets have value.  Coke has $37 billion in debt outstanding, far exceeding its book value of about $5 a share or $22 billion in tangible assets ($5 book value per share X 4.3 billion shares outstanding or about $22 billion, far below the $37 billion in debt).

While you are narrowing it down to a "specific property", Trump did in fact have trophy properties that were in demand for many years and people paid premium prices for them. 

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10 hours ago, BnaC said:

Maybe you should find one and ask him…but until you do that, half baked prosecutions with witch hunt overtones just fan their flames hotter and undercut trust in the system.

Really?  Who'd a thunk?

Of course, I'm quite sure that the people chanting "Lock Her Up" were not engaged in a witch hunt.  No Sir!  I'm sure they were thinking, "I really want to make sure Hillary is afforded due process by the FBI when they go after her for Anthony Weiner's dick pics a week before the election."  That just doesn't make as good a chant.

Mar A Lago is in my Top 10 for why I think Trump is a liar and a crook.  And the polls suggest a majority agree with me.  But it would be at the bottom of my own list.   The difference with Hillary is that at the time she got those emails, she was still SOS.  And they were not Top Secret stuff.  Although on later investigation someone decided some of them should have been labeled that way.  That's different than an ex-POTUS/Jedi MAGA freedom warrior having Top Secret stuff with big labels on it in his home, saying that he can declassify it simply by using the power of his thought. 

It's a fair point that both Clinton and Trump were guilty of a form of recklessness with government documents.  In my mind, an ex-POTUS intentionally taking Top Secret stuff with him and repeatedly lying about it is far worse.  Whether Trump should go to jail for that alone is a different question.  But the idea that Hillary is a witch, and Trump is a victim of the FBI?  Give me a fucking break.

10 hours ago, BnaC said:

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ~ Ayn Rand

Your Ayn Rand quote truly illustrates why the MAGettes are wrong, pathetic, and losing.  It's perfectly fine for you to glorify Trump and his lying and criminal behavior as the kind of thing that some poor superhero must endure in some Randian fantasy.  Paul Ryan would love it, in concept at least.  He adored Ayn.  Even though he couldn't stomach Trump much as an actual narcissistic human being.  Neither can Mitch.  Or Kevin, really.,  RINOS.  At least Kevin plays along to get power.

And it is clear that the MAGettes believe the pathetic lie, created and sold by the deepest and purest evil in Trump's mind, that his attempt to steal the 2020 is an act of valor and patriotism.  The Jubilant Patriotic Cop Beating was just that.  Not a riot.  Not an insurrection.  Not crushing the skulls and arms of Capitol Police and threatening to publicly execute a Republican Vice President because of the sick and fascist impulses of a failed leader.  Nope.  It was patriotism.  It was political free speech.  They were patriots defending America. 

Were Ayn Rand alive today, surely she would write a great novel.  About how the Capitol Police had their skulls cracked and flesh opened because the government had nothing better to do than call Trump and his flag waving MAGettes criminals.  How glorious to crack a cop skull open!  What honor and dignity in defending Trump, defending the nation, and defending democracy by destroying it.

I actually liked The Fountainhead as a kid.  Then I grew up.  But Trump and the MAGettes clearly want to live in their pathetic fantasy forever.  And I agree.  Ayn Rand would be a good one to at least try to make it sound like a heroic myth.

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The reality is 100 % the opposite of the evil shit in Trump's head that most of the MAGettes swallow hook, line, and sinker.  People don't see Trump as an Ayn Rand victim.  They see him as a crook.  And they think, like many crooks, he will get away with it.  Even though he shouldn't.  

That's not the same poll that showed about 60 % of Independents think Trump should face criminal charges.  In this one, it's a majority of Independents, who also see the insurrection Trump fomented as a threat to democracy.  But I posted this poll in particular because it illustrates the huge gap between how many people think Trump should face criminal charges, and how believe he will

That doesn't make Trump a hero.  Or a victim.   That makes him a rich and powerful crook that people think will get away with a crime he should go to jail for.  And the poll probably reflects reality.  Trump will get due process.  And because we live in a country with laws and lawyers, at least so far, Trump may well get away with his crimes.  Like Jan. 6th, which is a clear crime and is at the top of my own list of Trumpr's criminal behaviors.

Geez.  Wonder why most people don't see it your way?  Although, to your credit, you are at least being honest that you don't get it.  And never will.  The polls make it clear.  A majority of Republicans, the Trump Party, would rather live in their Randian fantasy.  And see the broken bones of Capitol police and broken windows at the US Capitol as acts of MAGA glory and valor. 

It's pathetic, but true.  The rest of America is disgusted by it.

Edited by stevenkesslar
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15 hours ago, augustus said:

The Trump brand was an asset

Since when are fascist impulses, deceit, lies, inciting riots and insurrection, and the destruction of democracy to satisfy a narcissistic personality disorder considered to be an asset?

I keep going back to this ad.  This was made by top conservative Republican spin doctors, not Democrats.  And they nailed the Trump brand.  As it was, is, and will be for all of US history.

 

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9 hours ago, augustus said:

Are you sure about that?  Coke has a book value of about $5 a share but sells for $58 a share.  Goodwill and other intangible assets have value.  Coke has $37 billion in debt outstanding, far exceeding its book value of about $5 a share or $22 billion in tangible assets ($5 book value per share X 4.3 billion shares outstanding or about $22 billion, far below the $37 billion in debt).

100% Absolutely Sure.  It is very common that many businesses have total liabilities exceeding total equity.  While it varies based on industry as to what those debt to worth ratios are, it is rare for a company to have a ratio of less than 1:1 - or more equity than debt.

What you are calling "book value" of Coca-Cola is not the value its tangible assets. What you are referring to as book value is referred to as "Equity Attributable to Shareholders of the Coca-Cola Company" in its Annual Report.  For the year ended 12/31/2021, that value was $23 billion.

To calculate total equity the formula is straight forward:  Total Assets minus Total Liabilities.  (Coca-Cola has some equity attributable to non-controlling interests, so shareholder equity is slightly lower than total equity.)  

Total Assets for Coca-Cola were $94.3 billion and Total Liabilities are $69.5 billion at 12/31/2021.

9 hours ago, augustus said:

While you are narrowing it down to a "specific property", Trump did in fact have trophy properties that were in demand for many years and people paid premium prices for them. 

I'm not disagreeing with you that Trump properties may have had more market value than other properties.   I am just reinforcing the Generally Accepted Accounting Practice for those items.  

If those premiums are rental rates, they would be reflected in the income statement as income, but would not be eligible to be carried on the balance sheet.  If they were properties that were sold by Trump, that premium would still only be recognizable at the time of the sale as a gain on the sale of the asset. 

Under GAAP. those premiums would never be recognized as intangible assets.  Goodwill is only recognized when an asset is acquired at a price high than its book value, such as when Trump may have acquired another business and paid a premium for that company.  

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3 hours ago, BnaC said:

That is not correct.  Bricks and mortar valuation may not be different but value in use will be.   That’s why McDonalds locations trade at a higher valuation metrics than, for example, Wendy’s….or Hilton over Motel 6.  The brand assigned to the real estate creates the cash flow that creates the value.  

Yes it is correct from a financial reporting perspective.  

While you are correct that the brand leads to a value in the stock market, that value is not included the balance sheets of McDonald's or Hilton.  Only when those properties are actually sold (assuming company owned rather than franchise locations) is McDonald's or Hilton able to recognize a gain on the sale of the asset.  

Value in use is a basis that can be used in appraising the property; however, GAAP does not permit the reporting of a property's value higher than the purchase price plus the cost of any improvements to those properties.

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:36 PM, stevenkesslar said:

I actually liked The Fountainhead as a kid.  Then I grew up.

I was your kind of liberal as a kid.   Then I grew up. 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 4:57 PM, sam.fitzpatrick said:

Yes it is correct from a financial reporting perspective. 

You’re mixing issues.  You’re referring to accounting value which is determined pursuant to GAAP.  I’m not referring to the stock market at all.   I’m referring to project finance and valuation of cash flow derived from real estate.  But if you want to talk about stock, a prime example is Holiday Inns.   Half a century ago, holiday inns was a languishing stock with terrible book value.  They sold all the real estate at huge gains.  Suddenly they had great GAAP defined Book Value and the stock shareholders got a windfall.  If you relied on “reported” balance sheet values, you were totally out of sync with real market values.    GAAP reports according to principles consistently applied once a market trade has occurred, but the market sets real value.  Commercial real estate trades based on multiples of forward looking NOI…not GAAP book value.  

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